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Arkham City: An Open World Game From A Simpler Time

Like the title suggest playing Arkham City in 2021 is like looking in an open world time capsule. The map is small, there is a minimum of twelve side quest, one real major collectible, and one short DLC story with no season pass. It’s pretty refreshing to play an open world game that isn’t trying to be “bigger and better” than the one that came out two months ago. What is “bigger and better” about Arkham City compared to its predecessor is the story. Instead of being isolated on a prison island you are now trapped in a walled off city filled with even more dangerous thugs and deranged criminals. To make matters worse Batman and along with several patients of Gothams hospitals have been infected with Jokers poisoned Titan blood and unless a cure is found within hours everyone infected will die. And just to add onto Bruce’s streak of shitty luck he must also uncover what this mysterious “Protocol 10” is that warden Hugo Strange is plan on initiating the very same night. I applaud the plot which embraces the comic book roots, if this wasn’t a game I could see this being a story line in the comics (probably from Scott Snyder or James Tynion IV).
As you traverse and explore Arkham City you get to see just how ugly it looks and I mean that in the best way. It looks broken down, the highways have been destroyed (if I remember correctly this section of Gotham was ravaged by an Earthquake), trash is everywhere, and some buildings have succumbed to the rising sea water. In fact you constantly hear about how much life sucks within the walls due to eavesdropping on their conversations and some of them are pretty amusing to listen to. The cast members for the new villains are excellent, Nolan North is unrecognizable as Penguin with his cockney (I believe it was a cockney accident). Troy Baker is exactly what I imagine Two-Face and Harvey to sound like, while he would not get more dialogue until Arkham Knight (conversation for another time), he was perfect with what little screen time he was given. And Kevin Conroy was absolutely chilling as Hush, it’s nice to see Kevin show his range as an actor and that he is just as good as playing the villain. Corey Burton is the definitive Hugo Strange (not that Strange gets to be in many games or shows) with his monotone and authoritative delivery. You always feel Strange is a step ahead of you and the more confident he gets the more satisfying it is when you finally punch him in the face. There was some casting I wasn’t 100% sold on. Tara Strong as Harley Quinn is so so. On paper this should have worked, hell I wanted it to work, but she is always using a high pitched voiced and it can get very irritating. Dee Bradly Baker portrays an intelligent and sophisticated Ra’s Al Ghul, but I always imagine Ra’s having a more deeper voice, but still Baker does a good job. And Troy pulls double duty by voicing Robin which is another odd choice. Maybe it’s because Tim is a teenager in the comics and in a lot of cartoons so seeing him as an adult is an interesting, but weird take.
The combat has, maybe improved is not the best word to use, but more like expanded, as the old saying goes “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and Rocksteady kept the combat mechanics unchanged and instead added more takedown variations and gadgets. What is improved on is the predator combat segments. In Arkham Asylum after a while those stealth missions didn’t have any variety, but in here you will face enemies that can spot you on the gargoyles with thermal goggles and some will have jammers that interfere with Detective Mode rendering it useless until you take out that particular thug. Boss battles have more variety to them now. You fight Ra’s on another worldly plane, you have to stand toe to toe with Solomon Grundy, you slash up Clayface with a sword, and when up against Mr. Freeze you have to think of new strategies on the fly. Once you finish up the story and side missions it is time to take on “Riddler’s Revenge” aka the combat and predator trials. If you’re to use to playing as Batman why not try out some new skins? My personal favorites were Dark Knight Returns, Batman Beyond, Batman Inc., and Sinestro Corp (disappointed we didn’t get Red Son). You can also switch skins in the campaign, but it’s really weird as you have to enter a cheat code on the main menu. Could there really not be a “select skin” choice in the options menu? If you are tired of playing as Batman then why not play as Catwoman, Robin or Nightwing each with their own play styles. Catwoman had her own story missions, but they were rather short. Which makes sense as her means of travel are complicated because you have to climb onto buildings. She feels much more suited for these combat trials. Robin is also fun to play as, but my personal favorite is Nightwing who plays like a dream. He wasn’t even in the story and doesn’t have any win quotes, but I am just happy he is here at all.
My one complaint I have are the Riddler trophies. What were once the fun collectibles have become more trouble then they are worth was you have to solve puzzles, the more you solve you will get the location of one of Riddler’s hostages. The trophies and riddles were fun in Asylum because 90% would lead you to a fun little easter egg. Some of them do that here as well, but there are a lot more and now they just feel like a chore instead of being fun, kind of big misfire when you are making a game isn’t it.
Is Arkham City better than Asylum? In my opinion yes and it is still my favorite of the Arkham franchise. The fact that it isn’t as overwhelming compared to todays open world games will make for a more welcoming experience.
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Batman: Three Jokers – After-issue Post 3 – Final Breakdown and Theories - (SPOILERS)


Three Jokers
This is Part 3 of my After-Issue posts:
After-Issue Post 1
After-Issue Post 2
I wasn’t sure if I was going to make this at first, but after reading the final issue, I just had to. Like the last two, I’ll break down the issue, find some references/easter eggs, theorize and give my thoughts.
I thought there wouldn’t be much left to theorize but fortunately for me, there’s still quite a ton. I recognize that reception is a bit more mixed, but I personally really enjoyed this book with a few minor disappointments IMO. I’ll get into that.
This’ll also be my big farewell to this series after theorizing on it for almost two years. So, I know I’ve said it before, but this is the biggest post I’ve made, ever.

I. The Briefing

The issue begins with the trio, after a brief fight, putting aside their differences and finally focusing on detective work. Something hinted at last issue with Bruce looking into his leads on the Jokers.
Credit to u/XxRambo-ApocalypsexX for the following image from his post:
https://www.reddit.com/DCcomics/comments/jj7ixa/comic_excerpt_flashbacks_batman_three_jokers_3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Flashbacks
First let’s break down each.
The first we see is the Criminal, who Bruce confirms is the first he encountered and points out his more serious and focused personality. A calculating mastermind indeed.
The flashback is from a panel in Batman #1 (1940, the Joker’s first appearance), specifically the very first Joker story (there are two in this issue).
If you’ve been following my posts, this should be familiar as I pointed it out in the first post as Jason Fabok teased this on Twitter earlier this year.

I called it!
As I said last time, this means that the original version of their encounter takes precedence over Man Who Laughs retconned version. Dick Grayson is now once again already Robin, so the Criminal likely stole jewels as well as murder his victims. His conflicts with organized crime may also be back.
Next up is the Clown, and we once again see a reference to Gaggy (the Original Court Jester and Sidekick of the Joker) and his first appearance in Batman #186 (1966). The way Bruce describes him of course matches what we know, and also very much reminds me of Mark Hamill’s Joker. Like I said in the first post, he’s my personal favorite, even if he’s the least in depth as a character.
But finally, here we have the Comedian.
Credit to u/WarWolf343. It is the obvious choice, and that actually adds a lot to the Comedian in the end which I’ll get to. Of course, that means that Rebirth image was inaccurate after all.
The implication of this of course is that Scott Snyder’s run IS considered canon to this story (which is a given if this is in main continuity), meaning Zero Year is canon. The story featuring a new version of the Red Hood gang, with Red Hood One being a true criminal mastermind, not a decoy, leading several Red Hoods. This could explain how there could be more than 3 Jokers if Bruce only had 1 encounter with RH.
Bruce points out a level of sadism under his smile that’s different from the others. I can see where’s he coming from. To me, that smile just looks fake compared to the Clown, who looks genuinely happy. Just my thoughts.

II. The Confrontation at the Monarch Theatre


\"Joker The Immortal\"
Next up we have the climax taking place in the Monarch Theatre, the cinema Bruce watched Mark of Zorro in with parents that fateful night.
Sound familiar?
We’ve had similar Joker confrontations happen in both Arkham City and recently in Joker War.
Jw’s wasn’t quite a climax as it took place in the middle of the arc, and there’s also a horde of zombies that Bruce sees as Jokers (and so fights them blindfolded). Funny similarities there but I doubt any of this is intentional. 3 Jokers was written long ago and Jason Fabok and James Tynion IV both support the idea that Joker War was made without any knowledge or consideration of 3 Jokers.
However, I’d like to talk more about Arkham City.
This was also the big ending of the game. I still remember playing it for the first time. Here, the Joker died after accidentally preventing Bruce from curing him. This was after it was revealed that he was still poisoned and that there was a second healthy Joker which was Clayface in disguise.
Hmmm. Sounds familiar.
Does this live up to those two?
IMO? Absolutely. Jason Fabok and Brad Anderson make this a fiery climactic battle while Geoff Johns does, IMO, a great job tying up what he’s set up since #1 (get to that in a bit).
The Joker’s death in AC was of course more impactful than the Criminal’s, but his and the Comedian’s plan here was great and the twist is just as good. I’ll get to that in a bit.
Lastly, Geoff Johns apparently has advised on Origins and Knight’s stories. Knight of course has the weakest, but IMO the character arcs in Origins makes it the best. The way there were “multiple Jokers” in Knight and City might have inspired him to make this. Also, both City and Knight has at least one line from thugs talking about there being or possibly being Three Jokers.
This could be a whole post on its own so better go back to the book.
The Criminal Joker reveals he wants to turn Joe Chill into the new Joker.
As I’ve said before, Jason Fabok points to Jack Nicholson’s Joker as an inspiration for him, who killed the Waynes and not Chill. Because of that, Michael Keaton’s Batman then aimed to kill him for revenge.
This confirms he did not hire Chill (who is not a hired killer).
Now, why would the Criminal want to do that….

III. Batman’s Greatest Scar

This book made clear from the very first pages and in interviews with GJ and JF that the main theme is about scars. Physical and emotional.
This in fact the whole purpose of the scars montage with Bruce.
He’s had many, many scars from his rogues gallery, but we see that the Joker has caused them the most.
But no matter what, the scar caused by Joe Chill will always be deeper than the others.
More than Penguin, Bane, Scarecrow, Riddler, Catwoman…
More than the Joker
Well, from the Joker(s)’ point of view, that’s just not right.
To the Criminal, this meant he had to fix the Joker. To make a new one that’ll far surpass him, his other two “apprentices”, and mean more to Batman than ever. Someone “far younger and more powerful” maybe (more on the Sith Lords later)?
He’s old and tired. He can’t even laugh without crying over the pain. He wants the Joker reborn better than ever, mattering more to Batman than ever, so he could finally rest.
In my last post, I pointed this out as the motivation for the Joker and recalled how Jeremiah Valeska (Proto-Joker 2) from Gotham had a similar gripe with it.

“I want to be the star of the show!”
So what did HE do to try and fix that?
Reenact the Wayne murders with Jim Gordon and Leslie Thompkins, complete with Crime Alley, pearls and Bruce being there to see it of course!
Now, both plans have flaws.
All Jeremiah is doing with this rehash would be to remind Bruce of that original trauma anyway. Even if Selina wasn’t there to stop him, this probably won’t make him mean more to Bruce than Joe Chi- err- Matches Malone (see: Gotham).
Unlike the Jokers in this book, Jeremiah failed to realize that Bruce will never be more broken from what he can do over than what Chill/Malone did.
The Criminal would be pulling a Batman ’89, as Bruce would know the Joker’s identity. Something the Comedian doesn’t want.
Which leads me to the twist on what the Comedian’s plan was, and to me it was genius and out of the box. Far surpassing Jeremiah and the Criminal.
He didn’t rehash or steal that trauma.
He took it out of the equation entirely.
He. Healed. It.
“It wasn’t the Joker that was broken. It was the Batman”
-more on that quote later
After the Criminal failed to turn his new potential successor, he planned to kill him and Batman instead, only for the Comedian to shoot him dead.
The Comedian was playing him all along in a plan to become the last remaining, definitive Joker and become the worst source of suffering Batman has ever had. Something foreshadowed last issue when the Criminal confirmed that it was his suggestion to reveal their secret.
And in the end?
It worked.
And it would only not work if Bruce didn’t have forgiveness in his heart.
It was checkmate.

BRIEF DETOUR
An evil master (cough Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine) failing to turn a prospective apprentice/successor (cough Mark Hamill cough), then deciding to kill said person only to be betrayed and killed by his current apprentice who tended to plan behind his back (cough Vader)? His other apprentice (The Clown and Dooku) being killed by another younger, edgier prospective apprentice (Jason/Anakin) before this?
Sorry I just had to bring that up lol. I haven’t watched Mandalorian S2’s premiere yet to not get distracted from this or my IRL responsibilities which also delayed this.
But seriously, the Criminal emphasizing the rule of threes (which is actually a real thing) last issue did remind me of the rule of two. His search for a successor and his traitorous relationship with his protégés here really, really made me see them like Sith Lords lol.
DETOUR ENDS HERE

u/Hmz_786 and I discussed before about how the Comedian could have been planning to betray the Criminal and the others all along. Maybe even seeing the Clown’s death coming. It seems that may be the case after all. Which I will delve into more later.
Besides Jack Napier from Batman ’89 and Jeremiah Valeska from Gotham, one Joker that I got reminded of in this was John Doe from Telltale’s Batman and Batman: Enemy Within. His last lines to Bruce in the Villain ending (there are 2 versions depending on your choice of dialogue to him) evoke the themes of this story or parallel what the Comedian says here.

(“Sure we’ve had some good times”) “I hope you’ll look at that scar and remember those good times”

(“I wish we never met”) “I’ll be the knife on your side until the end of time”
Back to Bruce and Joe Chill.
Definitely the best part of the issue and this story, is Bruce forgiving Joe Chill and healing his greatest scar. I’ve seen people say this has been done before. That’s true, but never exactly like this, not quite to this extent.
He didn’t forgive him in his mind as an old man after witnessing a new gang of criminals act far worse than him. He didn’t just spare him and leave him to die by either suicide or murder by his fellow criminals or to just rot in poverty.
This Joe Chill was truly remorseful, dying of cancer and wasn’t active as a criminal anymore.
Bruce stayed by his side and held his hand as he passed.
This is the most positive closure Bruce has ever had with Joe Chill, ever IMO.

“Forgiveness is Freedom”
So, the Comedian Joker won.
He healed Bruce’s greatest scar.
He killed the Criminal and became the last Joker.
But most of all, the ambiguity behind who the Joker is remains.
Or does it?

IV. The Joker’s Name

One thing I brought up in my last post is that the Comedian hates memory and remembering the past.
Since he is the Endgame Joker after all, that means he likes to tell his false origins as supernatural, demonic or nightmare fuel stories that prey on his victims (the back up stories).
Which in retrospect, fits with the idea that he doesn’t want people to know about his tragic past. He wants people to think he’s chaos incarnate, but he’s not.
Which is why in Death of the Family, he panicked and fell when Bruce claimed he knew his real name, which would prove he was human.
Then in Darkseid War, Bruce got the Mobius Chair.
He asked it two questions. One rhetorical for a test, and the other we assumed wasn’t. He asked who killed his parents and then asked what was the Joker’s real name, only to learn the premise of this very story. There were Three Jokers.
Here we learn that Bruce DID know the Joker’s name all this time. This means that it was also a test (which Jason Fabok has confirmed on Twitter to multiple people).
Let’s go back to The Killing Joke
The Joker attempted to drive Jim Gordon insane to prove his absurd, nihilistic thesis that life is a joke and anyone can see that just like he did by going through “One Bad Day”. Which in turn is to prove to Batman that they are alike and that he should be insane just like him.
Thing is…

He failed.
Jim wasn’t driven mad. Bruce wasn’t convinced and instead tried giving a counteroffer of rehabilitation. But the Joker refuses because he thinks A) He’s too far gone and B) He doesn’t trust that Bruce will keep the light on and commit to doing it.
The Joker did not prove his point and yet couldn’t accept an alternative hypothesis. If this was an official social experiment for research, he’d get an F (and then get kicked out and thrown in jail for unethical human testing without consent).
And really the flashbacks themselves prove it.
The flashbacks take more than one day. He was a struggling comedian in poverty and at times vented this on his wife.
No, that is not an invention of this book. That panel is directly adapted from TKJ.
We don’t see more from this scene in 3 Jokers, so it’s left ambiguous whether they reconciled or not the way we see in TKJ, but I think the latter works still. Even after apologizing the comedian still vented and ranted about his life. He made it clear he wants to get out of there, but he didn’t try more comedy gigs or getting his old job back at ACE.
No, instead he gave in to crime. Not too different from Joe Chill.
Note, there is an unspecified time gap between that scene and his meetings with the criminals.
He’s had 2 in fact.
He had to find them first, possibly introduced to them by the Criminal (more on that later) and then have that first meeting planning the heist and setting him up as a decoy Red Hood. From dialogue, their next meeting will be “next Friday” right before the heist. At least a week has passed then.
“One bad week” doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.
But that’s not the point.
He gave into crime even before the accident and he relied on that to save his family.
What would Jeannie think if she heard about him being willing to associate with criminals?
How would he act toward her in that 1 week where he still hasn’t fixed his life?
Whatever the case, we don’t learn his name
but we do learn that Jeannie lived.
Whatever happened in that lost week, she eventually couldn’t take it anymore and got help from cops to escape. She and her son (who IMO btw has to be 15-20 years old, or at least older than Damian) are alive in Alaska. Which is why Bruce wasn’t looking at missing Comedian files earlier, and instead looked at his globe.
This does feel like a very similar situation to the psychiatrist who tried curing the Joker in Killer Smile, only to end up driving his wife and son away and nearly killing them in the Joker’s plot to make him like him.
We then learn why Bruce can’t reveal his name, and possibly why he can’t kill the Joker.
If he reveals the Joker’s name, people will find his family and they wouldn’t be safe. The Joker would find them too.
As for the latter, if Bruce kills the Joker, he would be taking a father away from his son (more on the son of the Joker in the bonus segment!)
So in the end, Bruce had the last laugh.
He knows the Joker isn’t the devil. He was a man once. He had a wife who he loved before turning to insanity. The Joker failed in keeping the ambiguity behind himself, a week after Bruce fought the Joker (the Criminal?). He failed a long time ago.
And now,
Both refuse to reveal the identity of the other.

V. Is the Joker Broken, or Chaos Incarnate?

Now, a lot of people think this book is painting the Joker as someone who was always bad and that this ruins TKJ. I kind of already talked about that in the previous segment, but here I’d like to bring back an old post I made discussing the conflicting views of the Joker:
From IGN
Alan Moore of course argued for the Joker being a dark reflection of Batman. Both born from tragedy.
but
Frank Miller argued the Joker was pure evil. Satanic even. Evil incarnate. Not insane. Evil.
“I am chaos. I am the devil. I am everything to you and nothing. It wasn’t the Joker who was broken. It was the Batman.”
Putting that quote in that context, it looks like Miller’s version is what’s coming here.
But I don’t think so.
As I’ve pointed out, the Comedian is a liar that takes credit from the other Jokers and pretended he was an immortal supernatural boogieman in Endgame.
This is how he wants to be seen, because he’s afraid of the truth.
In reality, he’s the only one of the Jokers who has a desire outside of Batman and apparently the only one with One Bad Day. The Clown said he loved to take credit, he teased him about being a failed comedian and the Criminal called him out for wasting time with fantasies. They were the ones pushing him down. It was the Criminal trying to get him to focus on what matters.
He almost comes off as the bullied co-worker that gets reminded every time about where he came from and he HATES that. This was his revenge. By killing them and taking credit for all their work. He became the Joker who mattered. Not Chill, the Clown or the Criminal.
“Says the failed Comedian” “There is no her. There is no one else but the Batman”
Clearly, he still loved his wife. Despite him venting to her, she and their unborn son were still the reason for him going insane. Even now he secretly fantasizes them being with them.
Another thing to take note of is that, in both the Killing Joke and Three Jokers,
He NEVER reveals this specific origin to others
It’s always flashbacks and fantasies. When he does tell false origins, it’s always to paint him as this bigger force of chaos. A façade to hide his real past that the other Jokers see right through and belittle him for. With them dead, no one else knows now…except Bruce.
Speaking of which, this makes him more like Batman.
Because the way he wants to be seen by others,
is just like how Batman wants to be seen by criminals
Pretending to be a supernatural force of nature to strike fear is now common among the two victims of trauma. He failed to prove anyone can be like him in TKJ, so he decided to embrace the idea that no one can be like him.
In many ways this also relates to the Joker movie, where Arthur pretended, he killed those people for no reason other than them being awful. Hiding his pain by embracing evil. Of course there’s also the fact that, it hurts when he laughs and likely cannot control it.
I discussed that in the last post, but it’s based on a real condition: Pseudobulbar Affect.
The Criminal’s age makes it, so he cries almost every time. But from what he asked Jason, and the Comedian in Doomsday Clock, I’m betting all the Jokers have this trait to varying effect.
Finally, before moving on, one of the most important things to take note, is that the book spent a lot of time blurring the line between Jokers and victims.
Jokers and Victims
The jokerized Red Hood/Comedian lookalaike at the beginning of the story, the horde of Jokers at the pool, and of course, Jason himself. Being the Joker in this story seems to be about taking your pain and trauma, then inflicting that onto others. Which is again, the exact opposite of Batman, which all about taking that pain, using it to do good and making sure no one else has to face it alone.
In the end, can the Comedian be redeemed?
Maybe. Maybe not. But if even Joe Chill can, maybe one day the Joker can too. Or not
This again reminds me of Telltale Joker (voiced by Anthony Ingruber). One path lets him become a vigilante modeling himself after Batman, but in the end, he just couldn’t change his fate even with Bruce’s help, and he will become a villain anyway unless you offer your friendship to him.
“I really wanted to be a hero you know. But…I-I just can’t!”
I honestly did think we could’ve gotten a redemption for the Joker. I even had a theory (never published) about how Bruce’s new yellow oval having a flashlight as a reference to the titular Killing Joke and him not turning it off. But since this book does want to be canon somehow, it’s stuck from fixing that status quo even if they wanted to.
In the meantime, we have White Knight by Sean Gordon Murphy for those who want it.

VI. Who is the “Real”/Original Joker?

This is definitely something the book, and the Comedian specifically, want to keep ambiguous. But just to theorize, let’s list down the points for and against them.
Case for the Criminal
  1. He states to Jason that he was the first Joker, and that he ran Gotham before Batman.
  2. Bruce confirms he reminds him the most of their earliest confrontations. That briefing scene and the scars montage include flashbacks that clearly feature him as the first.
  3. Why would the Comedian only show up WAY later if he was the original?
  4. IRL he literally is the original Joker.
  5. He is the oldest and his laughing condition has been the worst. He wishes to retire after this.
  6. The captions place as him as number 1.
  7. He’s the only one to not claim to be the “real” Joker, as to him the Joker is an idea. Meaning he’s the only one willing to create new Jokers in the first place. The others don’t want to share the spotlight as both the Clown and Comedian claim to be the definitive Jokers.
  8. The Criminal acts like a boss and strict mentor to the Jokers, specifically the Comedian.
  9. The Comedian, from the first pages he’s introduced to the ending, is a liar.
Case for the Comedian
  1. He is the Joker who Bruce identified the past of a week after their first encounter.
  2. He “has a good eye for talent” meaning he probably did find the others.
  3. His normal-ish life before this and desire to hide it means he has the most to gain by making new Jokers. They hide his identity and teach him various skills. The Criminal can teach him marksmanship and planning. The Clown can teach him to be more creative and actually be funny. Meanwhile he was an ex-chemical engineer who worked at Ace so he has the means.
As you can see, I favor the Criminal, with three times the points as the Comedian’s 3.
However, if ever this becomes fully canon and referenced, there is a 90% chance the others will be retconned into being fake Jokers made for this story and there is an explanation for it.
BUT
What’s the THIRD option?
What if they were all born on the same night? This was hinted at in the first issue with the 3 Red Hoods jokerized. If Zero Year is recanonized, well then that explains how there can be multiple Red Hoods.
The most skilled and experienced at being the Criminal, the Criminal took the lead and taught the other two until they were ready.
The Comedian having the most normal life, made him the easiest and first choice for Bruce to deduce.

VII. Who are the Three Jokers?

How did they become to be?
Now that is a question that’s been in my mind for a long time.
Earlier this year I made several posts about the Three Jokers. Last year made several Doomsday Clock posts which was what got me known.
But before all that?
Almost two years ago now, this book was announced. I was curious.
Whenever I was waiting for a car, bus, commuting or whatever after class, after training or whatever on my way home, I didn’t have anything to do but use my phone. Except I didn’t have data and I grew out of mobile gaming. Usually I bring comics to read, but one day I decided to use that time to type down notes on who I thought the Three Jokers would be. For fun. Who knows maybe I’ll be close?
I used that to also read a lot of old classic Batman-Joker comics and even episodes of BTAS, Batman ’66, Brave and the Bold etc. A few months later, I realized how long it ended up and decided, what the heck, what if I make this an write up and post it on Reddit or something.
And so I posted this:
https://www.reddit.com/DCcomics/comments/a7odrk/my_theory_on_the_three_jokers/
It was really long and REALLY messy. Very outdated too.
I didn’t make anything like it again until the Doomsday Clock stuff, but this was the first. Then a few months ago I did more when the covers were released.
So, without prolonging this any longer, the Three Jokers, who they are and how they came to be:
The Criminal
The Criminal Joker was the original Joker. A calculating and cold criminal mastermind with a method to his madness. He challenges Batman and the police. He likes to mess with gangsters because he hates organize crime. Batman is his ultimate rival. As the oldest of the three, the pain of his laughs has grown to the extent that he cries uncontrollably when doing it. Because of this he rarely laughs and smiles now.
In the past he was a criminal who grew up on the streets of Gotham. He was a rebellious young man who injected chaos onto organized crime. He was skilled in hiding his identity and was smart enough to stay a step ahead. Bank robber, jewel thief, hitman, enforcer, con artist, gambler he’s been them all. Skilled with guns, knives, explosives, poisons and more. The world’s greatest criminal like Batman is the world’s greatest detective. Eventually he rose to the top as a mob boss. He ran Gotham before Batman came in. Due to boredom he created the Red Hood gang. He named himself the Joker after the wildcard, as he planned to rob the Monarch Playing Card company next to Ace Chemicals.
Today due to his old age, he’s the one that looks the most different from the other two and so in the decades since he’s avoided fighting Batman again out in the open. Preferring instead to mentor and boss his successors. His last known appearance was in-universe was War of Jokes and Riddles.
The Clown
The Clown Joker is the classic Joker. A theatrical but murderous prankster-thief with a creativity and charisma that surpasses the others. He only kills when it’s funny. His plans are smart but also outrageous and non-sensical. He loves using gags and trick novelties, at times weaponizing them to be lethal. He recruited Gaggy from a circus as his sideckick but later ditched them and killed his henchmen. He made the Laughing Fish. He killed Jason Todd because it was funny, and it would get to Batman. No real other reason. He doesn’t need a big point. He’d love to have this fun forever if he could.
In the past, he was likely a clown. He might’ve ran away to the join a circus once and met Gaggy there. After that he left to stay in Gotham and tried to be a clown at children’s parties and such. It didn’t work out and he joined the Red Hood Gang as the Criminal’s right hand man. But really he’s the one whose origin we have no clear knowledge on other than his title.
Today he’s the substitute Joker who does the smaller acts for fun and to throw Batman off their trail.

The Comedian
The Comedian Joker is the modern Joker. The one with the most meaning. He believes life is a joke. He’s the most sadistic and crazy Joker. His ability to evolve and change himself is due to his Super-Sanity. He thinks outside the box all the time, even as Batman tries to make a new one around him. He is the most unpredictable and dangerous. His obsession with Batman is the strongest, yet unlike the others it’s ironically not the only thing he wants. Unfortunately, he can never have the other thing, and that’s why he’s the most hateful. Love and Hate are almost the same to him.
In the past, he was a former chemical engineer at Ace chemicals who gave up his job to achieve his dream to be a comedian. It didn’t work out. He was a poor desperate man with a pregnant wife he loved and wanted to provide for but vented his anger on due to stress. He turned to the Criminal and Clown who made him a decoy Red Hood in their gang. Before their heist, his wife left him and faked her death, which broke the man. He didn’t want to do it anymore, but he had no choice.
Today, he’s the main and only Joker left. He’s learned enough from the other two. He surpassed them in intelligence and insanity.
How they look similar?
I believe they are brothers who were separated, not at birth but early in life, taking different paths but ending up in the same place. The Criminal being the eldest at 10 years older than the youngest but looking much older due to his lifestyle pre-Joker. The Clown and the Comedian are possibly twins. That’s how the Comedian found a job with criminals so fast. That’s how they were so familiar with each other. That’s how they (somewhat) trusted each other as Jokers. That’s how Jeannie became horrified and left him. She also likely informed the police of their heist which is how security increased and Batman got there. Which is also likely how Bruce discovered the Comedian so easily. His wife was the one who tipped him and the police off.
But if ever the other two are retconned as fake later, they could always either use:
Why should there even be 3 Jokers in the first place? Super-Sanity is better.
Super-Sanity isn’t mutually exclusive IMO. At least 1 of them has one with the Comedian being Morrison and Snyder’s Joker, but considering how the Clown also changed to be more lethal I’d say he too has it.
What this adds is the ability to give ambiguity to the other two Jokers while giving one a defined origin. You see Alan Moore believed the Joker wasn’t a very good character. I believe it’s partly because he couldn’t have a real origin. TKJ didn’t invent the trope of a mysterious origin for him. That appeared in Dennis O’Neil’s Joker run and Brian Bolland himself says he didn’t originally plan on making an origin for him when he pitched the book. That was Moore’s decision and the main point of TKJ hinges on it being at least generally true. So no gangster Joker who was always evil.
With one Joker having a defined origin, we have a deeper understanding of his character and motivations while still having mystery on the others. With Super-Sanity, the Joker can have an infinite amount of personalities, motivations and fake origins but since we can never know which is real, they might as well all false. Which is what the psychiatrist concluded in Serious House on Serious Earth. “He has no real personality”.

VIII. Who is the Best Joker? Who is my favorite?

Now if we’re going by who’s the most in depth character and best villain, then the Comedian is it. His origin gives meaning and depth to his character and motivations while making him a parallel to Bruce. His rant on the other two sums it up pretty well. He doesn’t want to give the Joker the identity like the Criminal or Tim Burton did. He was more than the Clown.
BUT
He’s not my favorite or best Joker.
u/mojothemobile said it best on a thread I saw earlier. The best Joker is the one you can laugh at as much as be scared off. A hilarious Joker that can make such vile acts seem funny. The kind of the Joker who would try and copyright fish infected by Joker venom, kill people with deadly pranks, make a Christmas special, stalk some guy who cursed at him on the road, attack Gotham with an army of bane-like Titan monsters, pull a fake Joker ga-
“Wait a minute, are you just describing Mark Hamill’s Joker?”
Yup. He had Criminal elements in Mask of the Phantasm, was the Comedian in the Killing Joke movie and maybe Return of the Joker, but in pretty much everything else (BTAS, TNBA, JL, JLU, JL action, Arkham Asylum, City and Knight (Troy Baker was more Comedian in Origins)), the definitive Joker voice played the Clown archetype.
Brave and the Bold and Batman ’66 adapted this Joker well.
Nothing beats the classics. But I understand it’s up to preference.

IX. BONUS ROUND

Did I have any disappointments with the book

Sure. Like I said I almost expected Bruce to try and rehabilitate the Joker again. I did wish we had more closure with Jason and Barabra.
On how little they reveal on the 3 themselves, IMO they gave enough for me to make this so I’m grateful lol but it’s probably necessary to keep ambiguity for it to be canon.
Otherwise a great book for me overall. Is it on the same level as Long Halloween or even Killing Joke?! Maybe not. But I’d personally put this equal to or greater to Hush which has similar strengths and weaknesses. Though not sure where I’d put it compared to DOTF and Endgame, but IMO this is above Joker War for me.
Before moving on, I’d like to add a random bit. The panel in the police car with the light shining on the Joker declaring he’ll be Batman’s pain until they die, absolutely great art. I think this was what Jason Fabok talked about when he said Brad Anderson homage the original colors of TKJ by John Higgins.

What about Jason and Barbara?

Jason, I think had the second most important part just below Batman. His arc is about realizing how close he is to becoming the Joker, and maybe realizing that he might need to find a new identity, which Bruce offers to him. But of course that can’t happen here or they can’t really be in continuity fully.
Barbara doesn’t get to do much but she does act as the heart of the trio who understands both and wants them to reconcile (but. She initially wanted to bring Jason in, but seeing him vulnerable as he was made her understand him more. In turn Jason seeing how she became this way inspires him to be better.

“Don’t tell me you’re a Jaybabs shipper Earthmine!”

Relax I’m not calling for that at all. I’m not really into shipping period and I do think the book could improve without it. But their relationship and parallels are important in this story and I think it was well done.
By the way, I like the idea of Jim knowing Barbara and Barbara knowing he knows.

What about Harley?

Harley in continuity appeared during No Man’s Land. That plus the Comedian wishing he still had Jeannie, means he likely filled that void with Harley, only to be abusive to her. She reminds him too much of Jeannie. Punchline doesn’t though.
I would like to share a theory I’ve had a long time now. In Case Study, it’s reveled that it was Harleen who made the report, concluding the Joker is sane, should be retried and executed. She changed her mind about it after meeting the Joker herself. She discovered the past of the Criminal, but by then he was semi-retired. If the Criminal found out he probably had the Comedian change her mind. The Clown of course likely avoids her since he hasn’t had a sidekick since Gaggy.
So she only worked with, and maybe met, 1 Joker.

Will it Canon?

please don’t sue me Watchtower Database, big fan
So, after all’s said and done, is this canon?
Well it can be. I’d say, in the past of the next new timeline which restores more Pre-New 52 (including Pre-Crisis) history.
I understand reception of this is more mixed than Doomsday Clock (which wasn’t universally loved either) and not everyone, maybe most people, aren’t sold with their being 3 Jokers.
But they can easily retcon that premise out for the other things or once again give multiversal, excuses. There really is a lot of potential to deal with all of this.

Detective Comics #1000: The Last Crime in Gotham

The son of the Joker.
Gee that sounds familiar. Maybe Geoff Johns already used this concept before?
He did! In his short story in ‘Tec 1000. There are plenty of themes of family in this. The Joker died due to the chemicals that created him and somehow his son became just like the father and died too. His last act was a gift to Batman and Gotham. He left a note, emphasizing the importance of family.
Besides that, this possible future includes Barabra and (a) Jason being married and Bruce and Selina having a daughter. Though at the end it’s implied to just be a wish by Bruce.
I recommend reading this after Three Jokers. It serves as a good extra epilogue IMO.

Post-Script

Well that’s it.
This was a great series for me and I’m glad to be able to do this.
Thank you so much for giving your time reading these and special thanks to the following users I’ve had discussions about this. Whether in Reddit threads, DMs, Disqus, Twitter and more. Whether short or long they’ve helped me a lot in making this, either by giving me more ideas or motivating me to keep doing this crazy thing. Thanks also to those who appreciated these so much they used their had earned coins for rewards. I’m really glad these aren’t just for nothing, thank you.
All of these include (but definitely aren’t limited to):
u/Hmz_786, u/WarWolf343, u/HelloGoodbyeOhGawd, u/xXRambo-ApocalypsexX, u/ScottishRyzo-98, Joe57039631 from Twitter, u/Tough-Part, u/Badbatmanman, u/mrwiyagi, u/NewsYouDontNeed, u/Ricky_Ticky_Tangy, u/Ozymandias2019 and many more I probably missed looking through my history, my sincerest apologies in that case.
Thanks to you all.
submitted by Earthmine52 to DCcomics [link] [comments]

GodzillaMendoza's critique on Arkham Knight's story isn't the best

This is a repost because u/VaderGeek pointed out some of my contradictions regarding subjectivity and I want to thank him for doing so; I hope my point can be better out across here. I felt like I could get my point across better if I reworded this.
Before I start, here's the things I don't like about the story:
That's it. Anyways...
https://youtu.be/AmRstjJSGcY I will be addressing the criticisms in this video as it's positively received and generally has the same arguments as those I've seen online. I should state that I like GodzillaMendoza and I don't mean this as an attack on him. Anyway, here we go.
First, he uses Joker being in the games as the main villain as a criticism, but it's rather vague and ignores what the series is meant to show. The Arkham Series is based on Batman and the Joker's relationship, and not a case of laziness really, just an overarching plot. In the first game, Joker comes up with the entire plan to make Batman see things his way, as indicated by his last monologue to Batman before the Titan Joker fight, and tries to kill him out of pure anger by the fact that Batman did the complete opposite and systematically ruined his plan. In the second game, it's based around Batman basically holding his and Joker's life in his hands, and considering if he really should save him. In Origins, it's the beginning of that relationship and how Joker grew to be obsessed and determined to break Batman. Wouldn't it be more natural and organic to HAVE Joker as the main villain instead of lazy if anything? How out of place would it be to make Joker have no plot relevance whatsoever despite the fact that Batman clearly had an emotional crisis after he died? Wouldn't it make sense that considering the THEME OF THE GAME (that being Batman's fears and insecurities) that Joker would naturally stick on his mind?
Then he goes onto the Joker blood, which is one of the most... Non-criticisms I've heard of it? It just completely assumes things that aren't true about it and I don't know where he ever got the idea for some of these.
It's never said that the blood was the reason Joker was the way he is, in fact it's the opposite. Isn't it shown through the actual game that's it literally a manifestation of the living human himself? Henry Adams says in the audio files that he's missed Harley, which if it would just turn people into psychotic maniacs like the Joker, wouldn't also have his memories. It's also shown Batman's perspective that in the lead up to turning into him, that it is THE Joker guiding them along that path.
He also says this ruins the mystique of the Joker because it just shows that anyone can turn into someone like him if they were infected by Titan or the chemicals in ACE chemicals, when this also isn't true because of what I stated above; this doesn't turn people into people like him, this turns people into him BECAUSE it's his blood and nothing else would do the trick.
Here's an actually popular criticism: "Why doesn't the cure Batman drink work anymore?"
Because it wasn't the formula for the Joker disease. Simple. It was the Titan disease that it was supposed to cure.
"Wouldn't he still deal with the physical aspects of the disease?"
This criticism states that it doesn't make sense that Batman defeats the disease by overpowering it mentally. When... Is it established that this disease can't be defeated mentally and have it's effects be eradicated because of that? This is a completely new disease that has it's own rules, it isn't contradicting anything. It's not cancer where that is completely separate from mental fortitude. Before some people say, "then why didn't the other patients resist it?", May I remind you that the only person who resisted it (Batman) is canonically able to completely recover and overcome a toxin that's quote, "able to drive ten men insane" in five to ten minutes, so therefore would naturally be able to overcome something like this?
He then goes on to say that the fact that Batman didn't go to the ace chemical factory and instead used a scanner to locate where the toxin like it was an actual criticism... Let's remind ourselves that Batman, by Scarecrow's words, has only tonight to stop him from mass spreading the fear toxin. Of course he's going to see where exactly the fear toxin is first before he may waste time looking in Ace Chemicals in the low chance that Scarecrow may not be operating there.
Now he complains about Scarecrows motivation, which is a popular complaint among reviewers.
I'm not going to quote his review but I'm going to state Scarecrow's motivation because a lot of people seem to get it wrong.
Scarecrow wants to break Batman mentally, and show people that he failed. That includes him destroying Gotham City and the east coast because that would naturally break and scar Batman. Easy enough.
Now, here's his criticisms for real;
"how would Scarecrow know Batman would hallucinate Barbara being killed?"
Yeah, it's not like he has a partner who apparently knows how Batman acts and thinks or anything, and would naturally know more about him. /s
Also, think of the circumstances he put Batman in. He captured Barbara, Batman doesn't know where Barbara is and when Scarecrow reveals him her location and acts like he has a limited time to save her, that would naturally ignite a fear in someone that their friend would die if they didn't get there. Crane is a professional psychologist, he knows how to manipulate people to think certain ways for fucks sake. His whole gimmick is finding out people's worst fears, don't you think he would know how to resurface those fears, or how to slowly build up one's anxiety or fear?
He says next that Scarecrows plan would last two days with Superman or Flash in this universe. Are we forgetting here that the only thing that would genuinely stop Scarecrows gas was Poison Ivy and her giant tree plant that only she could reawaken with Batman's help?
He then complains that Scarecrow would basically a destroy a Gotham with no one worth to save except the GCPD. First off, Scarecrow was going to gas the entire east coast along with Gotham. Two, it didn't matter if there wasn't a lot of people to save, he knows Batman would try and save it anyway and he exploited that. Three, he doesn't care about gassing the civilians, otherwise, he wouldn't have evacuated the city. He cares about breaking Batman mentally and showing the world that he failed, and one of those ways would more than likely be; destroy the place he protects.
"Was the Cloudburst a back up plan? What happens if ACE chemicals did work?"
He literally answered his own question in this sentence......... I really don't need to explain.
"He acted like this was his plan all along"
I mean... Yeah, it was a back up plan. You would naturally have a good back up plan. It's not even that complicated, it's literally just "Ace Chemical explosion but A TANK", this isn't some 4-D chess plan he's coming up with.
It's also said by one of the Thugs chatter that Scarecrow "was going to take the thing on tour", which would naturally be take it across the country. It's both a backup and a combination of the two plans.
"Why not detonate it when Batman is in Ace Chemicals?"
Doesn't Stagg literally try and stop Scarecrow from getting the Cloudburst? That would halt things a bit, to have your manufacturer of a big tank change his mind and not give you it?
"Why not protect the entire Island with tanks?"
When you go into Ace Chemicals, you can see they're still deploying soldiers and tanks. They clearly didn't have enough tanks to occupy a whole island just yet.
One problem with this critique is that he expects the villains to be complete geniuses who are ten million steps ahead of Batman and outsmart him in every circumstance, and because Batman isn't shown to be completely outmatched or constantly underhanded he says it's bad writing.
"If they threw everything at once at him he wouldn't be ready to adapt"
Two things. One. They didn't have everything ready just yet. Two. THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF HE HAD A TANK. Not even Arkham Knight did, so why would they want to waste resources on the teeny tiny chance the Batmobile is actually a tank when they didn't even know if he did?
"Who fucking cares if Gotham sees Batman fail? Or if his crusade is ruined? The only people who would see this are criminals"
What? Are we forgetting that Gotham is not the only place on Earth? It's literally at the end of the game that normal civilians are watching Scarecrows broadcast of his identity reveal.
He then says that the Arkham Knight only speaks about doing stuff and never actually does it.
  1. He evacuated the entirety of Gotham with his militia group, and took over the city.
  2. He captured Oracle, who's basically Batman's number one assistant.
  3. He's captures Jim Gordon.
  4. He literally drove the Cloudburst which gassed the entire city.
Need I say more? The only thing he doesn't do is kill Batman, and of course he isn't going to do that.
Now, the Jason Todd flashbacks.
"Batman's having flashbacks to events he wasn't even there for!"
... Are we forgetting that Joker is literally in Batman's thoughts and that he's becoming Joker? He's going to have his memories and Joker is going to play tricks on his mind. We see in the Open world the signs and statues turn into Joker. Is it really that mind boggling that he imagines this when Joker has done this throughout the game constantly? He makes him see things that aren't really there.
Also, Batman says "Joker sent me the film, I saw him kill you" at the Jason Todd fight for god sakes.
Now he's saying "Why didn't Batman look for the body" in the comics he did" now correct me if I'm wrong, but in that comic, I don't remember Joker telling Batman that he killed Jason and showing footage of him blowing up the building. Of course Batman is going to think Jason is dead! Do you really think Batman would believe Joker would leave Jason alive? And do you really think that the world's greatest detective would see a guy getting shot after being malnourished and tortured physically for months on end would live after that? And wasn't that presented as a legitimate point in the story that Batman didn't come for him? Of course he thought he was dead. This isn't a plot hole, it's pointed out in the story that Batman legitimately thought he was dead and that didn't come for the body and that it was a legitimate mistake of his? That's why he apologized to Jason.
"Where did Jason get the money??"
It's mentioned a few times by thugs that every major criminal in Gotham chipped in, along with Lex Luthor. Also, it would safe to assume Stagg chipped in as well considering he was in on Scarecrow's plan with the Cloudburst. If course if they have a plan to kill Batman they're going to, y'know, spend money on killing him. Also, right before you save the hostage in ACE chemicals (the one you take up an elevator), the thugs say that the villains of Gotham all chipped in.
He now says that Jason Todd in the comics was a good criticism or good counterpart to Batman, unlike the Arkham Knight. Yes, hee was but how is AK Jason not a good criticism of Batman either? His entire motivation comes off of the same premise as the UTRH comic, in which he is angry at Batman for apparently not caring as much about him as he thought he did. Comic Jason is mad at Batman because he thought he didn't care for him because didn't kill the Joker for him, and AK Jason is mad at Batman because he thought he didn't care for him by thinking he left him to die. Pretending Jason's motivation in UTRH was purely out of ideological purposes when he even stated that he didn't care if Batman didn't kill anyone else, just Joker because Joker killed him. It's an emotional motivation if anything, same as Jason from Knight.
"He's just gonna listen to scarecrow and give up for no reason"
It's not for no reason, they're both partners here and they have to cooperate with each other. Scarecrow wants to emotionally and mentally defeat Batman and Jason wants to kill him, and in order to achieve both because they're working together, Scarecrows gotta do his thing first. It's very clear and understandable, and Jason even tries to act upon it when he gets impatient and decides to give up on the plan.
"Why not just do it when he has two guns pointed at him?"
He had one gun, and it's probably not smart to try and shoot him then and there when you're the only person in that room across from Batman.
"And it's made worse by trying to explain his anger and sounding like an idiot"
He's angry that Batman didn't kill Joker when he had the chance and left him for dead according to him. Just because he is not as forgiving as comic book Jason doesn't make it bad writing, it makes sense for him to be angry at Batman. It's literally a criticism of his ideology. Also, when is it said by anyone that Batman killed Joker? Anyone major anyway? Jason never once said "Hey, you killed Joker then, why not beforehand?"
And yes, Jason had done bad things. People do that when revenge is concerned.
Now he's on to Batman. Oh boy. I personally think this interpretation of Batman is the best in media, so forgive me if I get a little mad.
"Why does Batman say this the end? Scarecrow and Arkham Knight are shown to be bad at their job and he doesn't show any Joker symptoms"
What? It's the fact that Joker is in his head taunting him constantly and the fact that he has a villain that helps increase and fasten the process of him turning into Joker not evidence of him having any Joker Symptoms?
Also, I've already said what Scarecrow and Arkham Knight have done that shows they're competent so I won't do it again.
Batman realises that the myth of the Batman is probably coming to an end. The Joker is taking him over and Scarecrow has killed and captured some of the people he holds dear. He more than likely realises that the fact that Scarecrow and the Arkham Knight have done as such that they will probably get to him as well through his friends and allies. They have already shown off his number one assistant AKA Oracle, they've already shown that's he's just a man and nothing more.
Now he says the fact that Scarecrow is alone in a room with a gun pointed at two hostages (ROBIN AND JIM GORDON) and the fact that Batman doesn't do anything is stupid.
One. I don't care if you're a super secret ninja man, if you have a dude with a gun pointed directly at your closest friends and allies, and who has shown that he's willing to kill people, then he's not gonna risk it. If he has shown in any way that he has defied Scarecrow or went to Arkham Asylum by himself, Scarecrow would kill them.
There's also nothing to prove that Arkham Batman has an arsenal in his suit like other adaptations. This is a moot point that proves nothing.
Scarecrow specifically asked Batman to come alone. If he sees literally anything resembling a Nightwing or bat related gadget thing Jim and Robin are dead. Batman doesn't want to risk that because it's stated throughout the goddamn game that he fears losing his allies, so when they have a gun pointed at them, it's probably realistic that Batman doesn't want to attempt a ninja break in in the chance in they die.
"Batman had to let Scarecrow strap him to a gurney"
Batman doesn't know if by attacking Scarecrow, that maybe he would alert guards to kill Robin and Jim. And besides, would Batman really want to risk getting both shot and induced with fear gas that would probably him into the Joker? Scarecrow has shown multiple times that he's capable of sticking his needles into Batman or showering him with fear toxin, ALONG with the gun as well. Batman. Doesn't. Want. To. Risk. IT.
Scarecrow at this point has broken Batman. He put Robin and Jim into a Jason Todd situation and Batman is faced with his worst fear; losing his allies. Scarecrow has systematically heightened and resurfaced this fear constantly throughout the game. Just like an hour beforehand, Batman sees the fruit of his failures; Jason, he lost him and he thought Jason was truly gone forever. He couldn't handle losing another ally. Batman at this point surrenders completely to Scarecrow out of fear. That is the point. Batman is not himself here. That's what makes the finale so satisfying. Batman finally overcoming scarecrow completely by saying "I'm not afraid of you, Crane." It'd be more out of character for Batman if anything if he decided to go in guns blazing considering the effort he takes to protect his allies.
Misunderstanding of the story and the build up to it.
"Why couldn't Nightwing and Catwoman save him?"
Ummm, first of all, they don't really have any form of transportation and Arkham Asylum is really far away. Secondly, like I've said, they don't want to risk killing batman or the others.
"He just told Jason he was sorry, was that enough to pull a complete 180?"
Yes. Jason at this point has been responsible for everything bad that happened to Batman that night. He still thinks at this point is Barbara is still dead, and it was Jason's fault for that as he captured her. He was responsible for what happened to Gotham, he helped Scarecrow throughout all of this, he's tried to kill Bruce but yet... Bruce tells him he's sorry and offers Jason a chance to fix everything that happened, as a team. Jason has thought up to all of this that Batman didn't care if he died, he thought he left him for dead and those months of torture with Joker just scarred him. Batman showing regret, forgiveness and a chance to help him helped Jason realise that Batman still cared for him. A simple "sorry" can change your entire perception about a person.
That's it. Bye.
submitted by an_lpenetration to CharacterRant [link] [comments]

Why was Batman defeated by Bane in their first battle in The Dark Knight Rises?

Why was Batman defeated by Bane in their first battle in The Dark Knight Rises?
I recently finished reading The Dark Knight Rises novel adaptation written by Greg Cox, which by the way was excellent and I highly recommend reading it. Reading the novel in conjunction with rewatching the movie made me want to write this in depth essay about why Batman was defeated by Bane in their first encounter, but was able to defeat Bane in their rematch, because I feel like there's a lot to write about when taking both the movie and novel into account, so I will be using The Dark Knight Rises novel in conjunction with the movie to explain what lead to the differing outcomes in Batman's fights with Bane. The answer isn't simply "hur dur because he's Batman duh!" in case anyone wanted to try that shoddy joke, because we all know that Kevin Conroy is Batman =)
Batman vs Bane Round 1
Novel description:
TDKR novel; Batman vs Bane Round 1
First and foremost, I'll start with the fact that Bruce was suffering from a lot of problems with his physical conditioning. Bruce as of TDKR, is a shell of his former self in terms of physical conditioning because he lacks the youthful attributes that his younger self had in Batman Begins circa 2007 and The Dark Knight circa 2008. Bruce as of those two movies was only 29-31 years old. TDKR however, takes place in 2016 because it starts 8 years after Batman's last public sighting i.e. end of TDK circa 2008. So Bruce as of TDKR is 39 years old, pushing 40, he's getting pretty old. A 29-31 year old man is much closer to being in the prime of his youth than a 39 year old man because the cardiovascular system for instance, doesn't function as efficiently because the structures of the heart become more rigid as you get older.
But age in itself was not the only problem; Bruce is also badly out of shape because he's been through an 8 year hiatus, a hiatus where he hasn't been exercising to keep himself in shape, but had just been a recluse in Wayne Manor, relying on a cane for his bad leg, while his body just atrophied. He was suffering the consequences of the constant wear and tear that he subjected his body to in his career as Batman:
Doctor: I've seen worse cartilage in knees.
Bruce: That's good.
Doctor: No, that's because there is no cartilage in your knee, and not much of any use in your elbows or your shoulders. Between that and the scar tissue on your kidneys, the residual concussive damage to your brain tissue, and the general scarred-over quality of your body, I cannot recommend that you go heliskiing, Mr. Wayne.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises; Appointment with the Doctor
Novel description:
“I’ve seen worse cartilage in knees,” the doctor commented, examining an X-ray.
Bruce sat on an examination table in Gotham General Hospital. It was already dark outside, but Alfred had managed to arrange an after-hours appointment. The Wayne name still opened doors in Gotham, no matter what the latest financial reports said.
“That’s good,” Bruce responded absently, only half-listening. He had other things on his mind.
“Not really,” the doctor said. “That’s because there is no cartilage in your knee. And not much of any use in your elbows and shoulders. Between that and the scar tissue on your kidneys, residual concussive damage to your brain tissue, and the general scarred-over quality of your body, I simply cannot recommend that you go heli-skiing.” He tsked at the map of old scars criss-crossing Bruce’s bare back and chest. “About the only part of your body that looks healthy is your liver, so if you’re bored, I recommend you take up drinking, Mr. Wayne.”
“I’ll take that under advisement, doctor.” — The Dark Knight Rises Novel.
He has concussive brain damage, has no cartilage in his knees, barely any cartilage left in his elbows and shoulders, has scar tissue on his kidneys and scars all over his internal body components. This obviously has something to do to with his experiences of crime fighting taking a toll on his body e.g. falling onto a car after being set on fire by Scarecrow, falling off a building in the middle of a fight with ninjas, falling onto a car with Rachel, getting stabbed by the Joker twice, his fall at the end of TDK making him limp and so on. Simply being repeatedly hit in the head alone will cause long term brain damage, that's why so many people playing American football, ice hockey and rugby for example are documented with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and Batman puts himself in far more dangerous situations than mere sports, which adds further insult to injury. Not to mention, his muscle memory of the League of Shadows training would also be lagging because he's stopped training for 8 years, so he's out of shape and out of practise. Both Alfred and Bane point out how Bruce is a mere shell of his former self:
Bruce: Bane was a member of the League of Shadows?
Alfred: And then he was excommunicated. And any man who is too extreme for Ra's Al Ghul is not to be trifled with.
Bruce: I didn't realize I was known for "trifling" with criminals.
Alfred: That was then. And you can strap up your leg and put your mask back on, but that doesn't make you what you were.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.

Alfred: You see only one end to your journey. Leaving is all I have to make you understand, you're not Batman anymore. You have to find another way. You used to talk about finishing, about a life beyond that awful cave.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.

Bane: Peace has costed you your strength. Victory has defeated you.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.

Bane: You fight like a younger man, nothing held back. Admirable, but mistaken.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.
The last statement from Bane is especially telling, because Batman in his first fight with Bane fights as though he's still got the stamina of younger man (i.e. his BB/TDK self) by aggressively, but recklessly unleashing everything he has at Bane by blindly bull rushing him, putting no thought into conserving his energy for the long run, so he exhausts himself out remarkably quickly. The novel reinforces this:
"He hurled himself at his opponent, knocking him onto his back beneath the foaming waterfall, where Batman hammered his masked face again and again. Clear water cascaded over them, making the Dark Knight’s black armor gleam slickly. Any normal thug would already be out cold, but Bane just absorbed the blows until Batman took a moment to catch his breath.
He let up, just for a moment, and Bane’s brawny arms shot out like rockets, smashing Batman aside.
The mercenary rose to his feet.
“You fight like a younger man,” he said, his voice betraying no hint of the punishment he had received. “Nothing held back. No reserves.” He flexed his own muscles as he advanced. “Admirable. But mistaken.
Batman was breathing hard. He realized Bane was right. Eight years of retirement had taken its toll on his endurance and reflexes. He wasn’t the same man who had defeated Rā’s al Ghūl nearly a decade ago. That Batman had just begun his career." — The Dark Knight Rises Novel.
What's interesting about how the novel conveys this is that it states that Batman "took a moment to catch his breath" and "let up, just for a moment," giving Bane the opportunity to knock Batman aside, and then Bane points out that that Batman is admirable, but mistaken for fighting like he's like a younger man with nothing held back and whatnot. Batman in response, is "breathing hard" which is more evidence that Bane is right because he has exhausted himself, and the out of universe narrator of the novel reinforces all this by saying Batman "realized Bane was right" and expands upon that by saying that 8 years of retirement "had taken its toll his endurance and reflexes" and to top that off, the novel says that Batman "wasn't the same man who had defeated Rā’s al Ghūl nearly a decade ago" because "That Batman had just begun his career." What's interesting is that the last two sentences make a direct comparison between TDKR Batman to the Batman "who had defeated Rā’s al Ghūl nearly a decade ago" and the "Batman had just begun his career" i.e. it's a comparison between TDKR Batman to Batman Begins Batman, because Batman Begins is blatantly obviously the movie where Bruce defeated Rā’s al Ghūl and had begun his career as Batman.
To put this more simply, TDKR Batman is far weaker than BB Batman because of inferior reflexes and endurance induced by 8 years of inactivity. It's also worth mentioning that TDKR Batman is wearing a different batsuit than BB Batman, the batsuit that Bruce wears in TDKR carries less weight than the batsuit that Bruce wore in BB, TDKR Batman's batsuit was designed to allow him to be lighter, faster and more agile than his previous batsuit, whilst also allowing him to be able to turn his neck independently of his torso. But despite all this, TDKR Batman's reflexes in combat context are not on par with BB Batman's reflexes. Reflexes in combat are about fighting speed and reaction time, which means that Batman's reflexes had declined so much over the preceding 8 years of inactivity that the customized functions of TDKR Bruce's batsuit i.e. being lighter and being able to turn his neck independently of his torso, just weren't good enough to compensate for how badly Batman's combat reflexes had declined. This puts BB Batman above TDKR Batman in terms of fighting speed and reaction time. So yeah, Batman was so badly out of shape that even wearing a much lighter and more flexible armor that allows him to turn his neck independently of his torso in contrast to his previous armor, just wasn't good enough for him to have as good reflexes of a version of Batman who wears a much heavier armor that doesn't allow him to able to turn his neck independently of his torso. The text also mentions Batman's endurance declining in conjunction with his reflexes due to the preceding 8 years of inactivity, which means that BB Batman has better stamina and durability than TDKR Bruce, ergo BB Batman would just longer in a fight without tiring out, and would also be able to withstand more punishment from Bane.
And keep in mind how the last two sentences do not make any kind of comparison between TDKR Batman to TDK Batman in any shape or form by saying something like this:
"He wasn’t the same man who had battled the Joker and outwitted a swat team nearly a decade ago. That Batman had been active in the war against crime."
Instead of that, it makes a comparison between BB Batman and TDKR Batman which suggests that Batman was at his peak in Batman Begins rather than The Dark Knight when putting the text into perspective, which makes sense in the light of his feats given that he arguably has better feats in Batman Begins than he does in The Dark Knight.
And that's just his physical conditoning. Batman also had a huge problem with his psyche, which was that he no longer feared death. Bruce no longer fears death he because he has fallen into the depths of depression over losing Rachel, losing Harvey Dent's sanity to the Joker and his failures of helping Gotham as Bruce Wayne, which causes him to stop caring about death, so he's subconsciously suicidal. Throughout the film, Bruce goes through a character arc where he relearns how to use fear to empower himself, specifically the fear of death. Batman was complacent and overconfident in his first clash with Bane because he understimated him, thinking that Bane was just a mere mercenary:
Alfred: I see from the television coverage that you got your taste for wanton destruction back.
Bruce: I retrieved this.
Alfred: Aren't the police supposed to be investigating them?
Bruce: They don't have the tools to analyse it.
Alfred: They would if you gave them to them.
Bruce: One man's tool is another man's weapon.
Alfred: In your mind, perhaps there aren't many things you can't turn into a weapon.
Bruce: Alfred enough! The police weren't getting it done.
Alfred: Perhaps they might have, if you hadn't made a sideshow of yourself.
Bruce: You thought I didn't have it in me!
Alfred: No you led a bloated police force on a merry chase, with a load of fancy new toys from Fox. What about when you come up against him? What then?
Bruce: I'll fight harder. I always have.
Alfred: Take a look: His speed, his ferocity, his training. I see the power of belief. I see the League of Shadows resurgent.
Bruce: You said he was excommunicated.
Alfred: By Ra’s al Ghul... Who leads him now?
Bruce: Ra’s al Ghul was the League of Shadows and I beat him, Bane is just a mercenary. We need to find out what he's up to.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.
Alfred tries warning Bruce that Bane is not to be underestimated by showing him footage of Bane's fighting style as proof that he is the return of the League of Shadows, but Bruce doesn't take Alfred's warning seriously because he defeated Ra's al Ghul, the former League of Shadows, and just dismisses Bane as a mere mercenary. Bruce eventually realises that he has underestimated Bane when they finally clash for the first time:
"Hoping to buy some time, Batman plucked a handful of miniature flash-bangs from his Utility Belt and flung them at his pursuer. The charges went off like firecrackers, producing a disorienting barrage of sparks, noise, and smoke.
Yet Bane didn’t even flinch.“Theatricality and deception are powerful agents,” he acknowledged, quoting the timeless wisdom of Rā’s al Ghūl. “To the uninitiated."
Alfred was right, Batman realized. This man was not to be underestimated. It’s going to take everything I have to beat him—if it’s even possible.
Determined to put Bane on the defensive, Batman lunged at him again, striking out with his fists and boots." — The Dark Knight Rises Novel.
Note that the novel says Batman "realised" that "Alfred was right," and in his internal thoughts he says "This man was not to be underestimated. It’s going to take everything I have to beat him—if it’s even possible" meaning that Batman wasn't taking Bane as seriously until he discovered that his theatrics didn't work on Bane. However, even when Batman took Bane more seriously by trying everything he had to beat him, he still lost because he had a death wish. Alfred, Bane and the blind prisoner in the pit recognise Bruce isn't afraid of dying:
Bruce: You're afraid that if I go back out there, I'll fail.
Alfred: No, I'm afraid... That you want to.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.

Bruce: Why didn't you just... Kill me?
Bane: You don't fear death, you welcome it. Your punishment must be more severe.
Bruce: Torture?
Bane: Yes. But not of your body... Of your soul.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.

Blind doctor: You do not fear death. You think this makes you strong. It makes you weak.
Bruce: Why?
Doctor: How can you move faster then possible, fight longer then possible, without the most powerful impulse of the spirit? The fear of death.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.
The novel fleshes this out further, such as the scene that Alfred says that he's afraid that Bruce wants to fail:
"Bane was a member of the League of Shadows.”
“Until he was excommunicated,” Alfred said. “And a man considered too extreme for Rā’s al Ghūl is not to be trifled with.”
But Bruce refused to be intimidated.
“I didn’t know I was known for ‘trifling’ with criminals.”
That was then,” Alfred said gravely. “And you can put the cowl back on, but it won’t make you what you were.
"Which was?"
“Someone whose anger at death made him value all life,” the servant replied. “Even his own.”
My own life doesn’t matter*,* Bruce thought. Then he spoke. “If this Bane is all the things you say he is, then this city needs me.” — The Dark Knight Rises Novel.
___
Just like in the movie, Alfred said that Bruce can put the batsuit back on, but it still won't make him what he once was, Bruce asks what Alfred meant, and Alfred's answer was Bruce's anger at death that made him value all life, including his own. Bruce in his internal thoughts shrugs it off, thinking that his own life doesn't matter. Alfred is talking specifically about Bruce's anger at death for taking his parents' lives, his anger at the criminal underworld for taking his parents away from him, his anger at the criminal underworld for taking the lives of innocent Gotham inhabitants to inculcate terror into others, spreading fear and corruption just to take away human lives. A very fundamental part of what made Bruce become Batman in the first place was his anger towards Gotham's criminal underworld because a common thug named Joe Chill murdered his parents in front of him when he was only 8 years old. There's another instance in the novel of Alfred calling Bruce out on his self destructive mental state:
You thought I didn’t have it in me anymore,” Bruce said.
Alfred returned the cape and cowl to the closet where they belonged. He wished he could lock them away for good.
You don’t,” he said. “You led a bloated, overconfident police force on a merry chase with some fancy new toys from Fox.” He called Bruce’s attention to the ghastly security footage on the main monitor. “What about when you come up against him. What then?”
On the screen, Bane murdered a roomful of security guards with terrifying speed and brutality. His lethally effective fighting technique was eerily similar to Batman’s, but much more final. Bruce’s jaw tightened as he contemplated the footage.
“I’ll fight harder,” he said. “Like I always have.”
When you had something to fight for,” Alfred argued. “What are you fighting for now? Not your life.
”Bruce frowned and moved to switch off the screen. Alfred stopped him." — The Dark Knight Rises Novel.
Alfred's dialogue about Bruce's anger at death and lack of conviction to fight for his life aren't included in the movie, they're only in the novel, but that's because one of the functions of novel adaptations of movies is to flesh out what's in the movie because movies can't spell everything out for us.
So not only is Bruce out of shape and out of practise, but he is also subconsciously suicidal. He's lost a specific source of power that was once his driving force as Batman.
Fear.
The fear of death.
Throughout his imprisonment in the pit, Bruce's back is eventually healed, when that happens he starts training his body in vigorous exercises so that he can finally get back in shape, doing pull ups and push ups:
The Dark Knight Rises; why build yourself?
The Novel explains them in detail in the following two passages:
TDKR novel; Bruce workout passage 1
TDKR novel; Bruce workout passage 2
The novel states that Bruce "rebuilt his body" by doing pushups, "working until sweat dripped from his pale, unshaven face" and "pushed himself to his limits—and beyond" and "paused for a moment before trying for another fifty reps" and "pushed himself ever harder" but later decided to "accelerate his already-brutal exercise regime" with "endless pushups, squats, and stretches filled his every waking hour until he barely remembered to eat or sleep" and even describes it as "It was as if the League of Shadows was training him, all over again" which says a lot of how hard Bruce trained his body to get back in shape. Bruce was that motivated to get back in shape that he threw punches and kicks at empty air whilst imagining that Bane's face was his target. The novel also states that after making the climb to freedom, Bruce "looked as if he had been working out like an Olympic athlete" which suggests that he was in peak physical conditioning, at least for his age (i.e. 39):
"Bruce bounded up the stairs, while Fox huffed and puffed behind him. After sneaking around Gotham all day, he was definitely feeling his age, unlike Bruce, who looked as if he had been working out like an Olympic athlete. A fresh leg brace, recovered from the bunker, meant he didn’t need to worry about his bum knee anymore, either." — The Dark Knight Rises Novel.
But it wasn't the fact that Bruce got back in shape that led to him escaping the pit. Bruce also relearned how to use fear to empower himself:
Blind Prisoner: You do not fear death. You think this makes you strong. It makes you weak.
Bruce: Why?
Blind Prisoner: How can you move faster than possible, fight longer than possible without the most powerful impulse of the spirit - the fear of death?
Bruce: I do fear death. I fear dying in here, while my city burns, and there’s no one there to save it.
Blind Prisoner: Then make the climb.
Bruce Wayne: [laughs] How?
Blind Prisoner: As the child did. Without the rope. Then fear will find you again.
Source — The Dark Knight Rises.
This is one of the most powerful scenes in the entire trilogy because it sums up the source of Batman’s strength: Fear.
Bruce Wayne is afraid of bats, he decides to harness his fear into a weapon by personifying his childhood fear of bats. He witnessed his parents’ murder and has the fear that another child will experience the same trauma as he did, so he harnesses that fear into a symbol for justice in the form of the Batman. Everything he does is motivated by his fear, not just anger. The Bruce Wayne we see in The Dark Knight Rises is a shell of the man he used to be, he has forgotten the true source of where his strength came from because he has a death wish. When he becomes Batman again, he blindly rushes into a fight with Bane that he’s ill-prepared for and after losing that fight, he asks Bane why he didn’t just kill him, Bane's answer is Bruce wanted to die.
Throughout his imprisonment in the pit, the blind prisoner has been trying to explain to Bruce that the climb to freedom isn’t about the strength of the body, but rather the strength of the human spirit. Bruce dismisses this, believing that if a child could make this climb, then there’s no reason he shouldn’t be able to. On his third attempt, Bruce listens to the blind prisoner and changes his strategy to the same strategy that the child used. Prior to this, Bruce had attempted the leap to freedom with a safety rope to keep him from falling to his death in case he fails to successfully make the leap, so he didn't have to fear falling to his death. In his third and final attempt, he decides to go without the rope, with no option but to succeed, thereby having the fear of falling to his death and the fear of having no chance to return to his city to save it from destruction. Bruce's fear is renewed as his strength and he successfully makes it across the chasm. But it's not just the fear of death and destruction of his city that motivates Bruce, what also motivates him is that his fear of bats also returns:
https://i.redd.it/obw20pdujhx51.gif
The novel describes Bruce's third attempt at the climb rather beautifully:
TDKR novel; Bruce's third attempt at the climb
After Bruce successfully makes the climb to freedom and returns to Gotham, he has a rematch with Bane, but unlike last time, Batman wins this rematch, because he's in much better physical shape, but also because he is fighting with far more conviction and determination:
Batman vs Bane Round 2
Novel's description:
TDKR novel; Batman vs Bane Round 2
The novel's description is quite interesting. When they begin their rematch, the novel says that Batman "fought back smartly, less recklessly than he had in the sewers" which suggests that this time, Batman put more thought into conserving his energy because by fighting tactically and strategically, as opposed to how he quickly got exhausted by blindly using brute force to pummel Bane into submission in their previous battle. The novel expands upon this by saying Batman "ducked and weaved, evading the worst of Bane's blows, while throwing surgical jabs and strikes at Bane's sides" and delivered "a rabbit punch to his solar plexus was followed instantly by an elbow to his ribs" i.e. Batman takes a more measured and cautious approach by dodging Bane's attacks and using finesse to target vulnerable spots in Bane's body, as opposed how he exhausted himself by using brute force to pummel Bane into submission in their previous clash. Bane "absorbed the blows stoicly" since he was "no stranger to pain" but he still "found himself impressed with Batman's skill and stamina, especially considering all that Bane had already done to him" and realised that Batman was "no ordinary foe" because he escaped the pit and "saw now Rā’s al Ghūl had seen in this man so many years ago" which is a far cry from how utterly unconcerned he was with Batman in their previous encounter. An encounter where Batman got trashed.
Granted, the novel's description of Batman's rematch with Bane contradicts the choreography of their rematch in the movie quite significantly, but it's only the choreography that has been contradicted by the movie, that's it. Not to mention, Batman and Bane fight off screen for a total of 70 seconds, so it's perfectly plausible that Batman "ducked and weaved, evading the worst of Bane's blows, while throwing surgical jabs and strikes at Bane's sides" and delivered "a rabbit punch to his solar plexus was followed instantly by an elbow to his ribs" whilst they fought off screen, but the subtext more importantly - which is that Batman puts up a much better fight against Bane as a result of being in much better shape and a much better mindset - isn't at odds with the movie because the movie doesn't tell us what Batman’s internal thoughts are.
So yeah, either way, Bane got his ass kicked when Batman was actually in good shape and mental health. And before I finish, I'd like to add that Bane defeated Batman in their first clash by breaking his back and whatnot, was influenced by Batman Knightfall story not just because Bane breaks Batman's back in that story, but also because he defeated a Batman who was in terrible with because he was physically and mentally exhausted due to recently dedicating months of his time putting away all the escaped supervillains from Arkham Asylum. Batman was that exhausted from those gruelling tasks that he actually wanted to die during his clash with Bane in Wayne Manor:
Batman's internal thoughts: Feel so bad, I want to die... And now... He's here, in Wayne Manor... Ready and willing to grant my wish.
Source ― Batman (1940) Issue #497.

https://preview.redd.it/0e4iwhoslhx51.jpg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e57ce0cabac1071f6201482c2c6a01c0474c146a
I also highly reccomend that you read Knightfall, it's pretty long, but a very great story. No Man's Land is way longer though, I still haven't gotten around to reading it properly due to the length of the story.
Closing Statements:
Thanks for reading, I hope people have a better Bruce's character arc in TDKR from reading this. Peace out.
submitted by Yousuf1212 to batman [link] [comments]

GodzillaMendoza's video on Arkham Knight's story isn't good (WARNING: SPOILERS AND REALLY, REALLY LONG)

Do respond to my defenses of the game if you have any criticism of this post.
Also, if you're just going to say "who will read this" or "who asked", please don't. I don't need permission to speak and it provides nothing to the conversation. Ignore it if you want.
Before I start, here's the things I don't like about the story:
That's it. Anyways...
I've been avidly defending this game's story these past week, and so far I've only been really convinced by one person's criticism. The rest are either easily explained, are completely subjective, or, like I said, sensationalised to make it out to be bigger than it actually is so all the good parts of the story are ignored.
https://youtu.be/AmRstjJSGcY I will be addressing the criticisms in this video as it's positively received and generally has the same arguments as those I've seen online. I should state that I like GodzillaMendoza and I don't mean this as an attack on him. Anyway, here we go.
First, he uses Joker being in the games as the main villain as a criticism, even though this is completely subjective, as the Arkham Series is based on Batman and the Joker's relationship, and not a case of bad writing at all. In the first game, Joker comes up with the entire plan to make Batman see things his way, as indicated by his last monologue to Batman before the Titan Joker fight, and tries to kill him out of pure anger by the fact that Batman did the complete opposite and systematically ruined his plan. In the second game, it's based around Batman basically holding his and Joker's life in his hands, and considering if he really should save him. In Origins, it's the beginning of that relationship and how Joker grew to be obsessed and determined to break Batman. Wouldn't it be more natural and organic to HAVE Joker as the main villain instead of lazy if anything? How out of place would it be to make Joker have no plot relevance whatsoever despite the fact that Batman clearly had an emotional crisis after he died? Wouldn't it make sense that considering the THEME OF THE GAME (that being Batman's fears and insecurities) that Joker would naturally stick on his mind?
Then he goes onto the Joker blood, which I regret now because this is possibly the worst criticism I've heard of it. It just completely assumes things that aren't true.
It's never said that the blood was the reason Joker was the way he is, in fact it's the opposite. Isn't it shown through the actual game that's it literally a manifestation of the living human himself? Henry Adams says in the audio files that he's missed Harley, which if it would just turn people into psychotic maniacs like the Joker, wouldn't also have his memories. It's also shown Batman's perspective that in the lead up to turning into him, that it is THE Joker guiding them along that path.
He also says this ruins the mystique of the Joker because it just shows that anyone can turn into someone like him if they were infected by Titan or the chemicals in ACE chemicals, when this also isn't true because of what I stated above; this doesn't turn people into people like him, this turns people into him BECAUSE it's his blood and nothing else would do the trick.
Here's an actually popular criticism: "Why doesn't the cure Batman drink work anymore?"
Because it wasn't the formula for the Joker disease. Simple. It was the Titan disease that it was supposed to cure.
"Wouldn't he still deal with the physical aspects of the disease?"
This criticism states that it doesn't make sense that Batman defeats the disease by overpowering it mentally. When... Is it established that this disease can't be defeated mentally and have it's effects be eradicated because of that? This is a completely new disease that has it's own rules, it isn't contradicting anything. It's not cancer where that is completely separate from mental fortitude. Before some people say, "then why didn't the other patients resist it?", May I remind you that the only person who resisted it (Batman) is canonically able to completely recover and overcome a toxin that's quote, "able to drive ten men insane" in five to ten minutes, so therefore would naturally be able to overcome something like this?
He then goes on to say that the fact that Batman didn't go to the ace chemical factory and instead used a scanner to locate where the toxin like it was an actual criticism... Let's remind ourselves that Batman, by Scarecrow's words, has only tonight to stop him from mass spreading the fear toxin. Of course he's going to see where exactly the fear toxin is first before he may waste time looking in Ace Chemicals in the low chance that Scarecrow may not be operating there.
Now he complains about Scarecrows motivation, which is a popular complaint among reviewers.
I'm not going to quote his review but I'm going to state Scarecrow's motivation because a lot of people seem to get it wrong, especially GodzillaMendoza.
Scarecrow wants to break Batman mentally, and show people that he failed. That includes him destroying Gotham City and the east coast because that would naturally break and scar Batman. Easy enough.
Now, here's his criticisms for real;
"how would Scarecrow know Batman would hallucinate Barbara being killed?"
Yeah, it's not like he has a partner who apparently knows how Batman acts and thinks or anything, and would naturally know more about him. /s
Also, think of the circumstances he put Batman in. He captured Barbara, Batman doesn't know where Barbara is and when Scarecrow reveals him her location and acts like he has a limited time to save her, that would naturally ignite a fear in someone that their friend would die if they didn't get there. Crane is a professional psychologist, he knows how to manipulate people to think certain ways for fucks sake. His whole gimmick is finding out people's worst fears, don't you think he would know how to resurface those fears, or how to slowly build up one's anxiety or fear?
He says next that Scarecrows plan would last two days with Superman or Flash in this universe. Are we forgetting here that the only thing that would genuinely stop Scarecrows gas was Poison Ivy and her giant tree plant that only she could reawaken with Batman's help?
He then complains that Scarecrow would basically a destroy a Gotham with no one worth to save except the GCPD. First off, Scarecrow was going to gas the entire east coast along with Gotham. Two, it didn't matter if there wasn't a lot of people to save, he knows Batman would try and save it anyway and he exploited that. Three, he doesn't care about gassing the civilians, otherwise, he wouldn't have evacuated the city. He cares about breaking Batman mentally and showing the world that he failed, and one of those ways would more than likely be; destroy the place he protects.
"Was the Cloudburst a back up plan? What happens if ACE chemicals did work?"
He literally answered his own question in this sentence......... I really don't need to explain.
"He acted like this was his plan all along"
I mean... Yeah, it was a back up plan. You would naturally have a good back up plan. It's not even that complicated, it's literally just "Ace Chemical explosion but A TANK", this isn't some 4-D chess plan he's coming up with.
It's also said by one of the Thugs chatter that Scarecrow "was going to take the thing on tour", which would naturally be take it across the country. It's both a backup and a combination of the two plans.
"Why not detonate it when Batman is in Ace Chemicals?"
Doesn't Stagg literally try and stop Scarecrow from getting the Cloudburst? That would halt things a bit, to have your manufacturer of a big tank change his mind and not give you it?
"Why not protect the entire Island with tanks?"
When you go into Ace Chemicals, you can see they're still deploying soldiers and tanks. They clearly didn't have enough tanks to occupy a whole island just yet.
One problem with this critique is that he expects the villains to be complete geniuses who are ten million steps ahead of Batman and outsmart him in every circumstance, and because Batman isn't shown to be completely outmatched or constantly underhanded he says it's bad writing.
"If they threw everything at once at him he wouldn't be ready to adapt"
Two things. One. They didn't have everything ready just yet. Two. THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF HE HAD A TANK. Not even Arkham Knight did, so why would they want to waste resources on the teeny tiny chance the Batmobile is actually a tank when they didn't even know if he did?
"Who fucking cares if Gotham sees Batman fail? Or if his crusade is ruined? The only people who would see this are criminals"
What? Are we forgetting that Gotham is not the only place on Earth? It's literally at the end of the game that normal civilians are watching Scarecrows broadcast of his identity reveal.
He then says that the Arkham Knight only speaks about doing stuff and never actually does it.
  1. He evacuated the entirety of Gotham with his militia group, and took over the city.
  2. He captured Oracle, who's basically Batman's number one assistant.
  3. He's captures Jim Gordon.
  4. He literally drove the Cloudburst which gassed the entire city.
Need I say more? The only thing he doesn't do is kill Batman, and of course he isn't going to do that.
Now, the Jason Todd flashbacks.
"Batman's having flashbacks to events he wasn't even there for!"
... Are we forgetting that Joker is literally in Batman's thoughts and that he's becoming Joker? He's going to have his memories and Joker is going to play tricks on his mind. We see in the Open world the signs and statues turn into Joker. Is it really that mind boggling that he imagines this when Joker has done this throughout the game constantly?
Also, Batman says "Joker sent me the film, I saw him kill you" at the Jason Todd fight for god sakes.
Now he's saying "Why didn't Batman look for the body" in the comics he did" now correct me if I'm wrong, but in that comic, I don't remember Joker telling Batman that he killed Jason and showing footage of him blowing up the building. Of course Batman is going to think Jason is dead! Do you really think Batman would believe Joker would leave Jason alive? And do you really think that the world's greatest detective would see a guy getting shot after being malnourished and tortured physically for months on end would live after that? And wasn't that presented as a legitimate point in the story that Batman didn't come for him? Of course he thought he was dead. This isn't a plot hole, it's pointed out in the story that Batman legitimately thought he was dead and that didn't come for the body and that it was a legitimate mistake of his? That's why he apologized to Jason.
"Where did Jason get the money??"
It's mentioned a few times by thugs that every major criminal in Gotham chipped in, along with Lex Luthor. Also, it would safe to assume Stagg chipped in as well considering he was in on Scarecrow's plan with the Cloudburst. If course if they have a plan to kill Batman they're going to, y'know, spend money on killing him.
He now says that Jason Todd in the comics was a good criticism or good counterpart to Batman, unlike the Arkham Knight. Yes, hee was but how is AK Jason not a good criticism of Batman either? His entire motivation comes off of the same premise as the UTRH comic, in which he is angry at Batman for apparently not caring as much about him as he thought he did. Comic Jason is mad at Batman because he thought he didn't care for him because didn't kill the Joker for him, and AK Jason is mad at Batman because he thought he didn't care for him by thinking he left him to die. Pretending Jason's motivation in UTRH was purely out of ideological purposes when he even stated that he didn't care if Batman didn't kill anyone else, just Joker because Joker killed him. It's an emotional motivation if anything, same as Jason from Knight.
"He's just gonna listen to scarecrow and give up for no reason"
It's not for no reason, they're both partners here and they have to cooperate with each other. Scarecrow wants to emotionally and mentally defeat Batman and Jason wants to kill him, and in order to achieve both because they're working together, Scarecrows gotta do his thing first. It's very clear and understandable, and Jason even tries to act upon it when he gets impatient and decides to give up on the plan.
"Why not just do it when he has two guns pointed at him?"
He had one gun, and it's probably not smart to try and shoot him then and there when you're the only person in that room across from Batman.
"And it's made worse by trying to explain his anger and sounding like an idiot"
He's angry that Batman didn't kill Joker when he had the chance and left him for dead according to him. Just because he is not as forgiving as comic book Jason doesn't make it bad writing, it makes sense for him to be angry at Batman. It's literally a criticism of his ideology. Also, when is it said by anyone that Batman killed Joker? Anyone major anyway? Jason never once said "Hey, you killed Joker then, why not beforehand?"
And yes, Jason had done bad things. People do that when revenge is concerned.
Now he's on to Batman. Oh boy. I personally think this interpretation of Batman is the best in media, so forgive me if I get a little mad.
"Why does Batman say this the end? Scarecrow and Arkham Knight are shown to be bad at their job and he doesn't show any Joker symptoms"
What? It's the fact that Joker is in his head taunting him constantly and the fact that he has a villain that helps increase and fasten the process of him turning into Joker not evidence of him having any Joker Symptoms?
Also, I've already said what Scarecrow and Arkham Knight have done that shows they're competent so I won't do it again.
Batman realises that the myth of the Batman is probably coming to an end. The Joker is taking him over and Scarecrow has killed and captured some of the people he holds dear. He more than likely realises that the fact that Scarecrow and the Arkham Knight have done as such that they will probably get to him as well through his friends and allies. They have already shown off his number one assistant AKA Oracle, they've already shown that's he's just a man and nothing more.
Now he says the fact that Scarecrow is alone in a room with a gun pointed at two hostages (ROBIN AND JIM GORDON) and the fact that Batman doesn't do anything is stupid.
One. I don't care if you're a super secret ninja man, if you have a dude with a gun pointed directly at your closest friends and allies, and who has shown that he's willing to kill people, then he's not gonna risk it. If he has shown in any way that he has defied Scarecrow or went to Arkham Asylum by himself, Scarecrow would kill them.
There's also nothing to prove that Arkham Batman has an arsenal in his suit like other adaptations. This is a moot point that proves nothing.
Scarecrow specifically asked Batman to come alone. If he sees literally anything resembling a Nightwing or bat related gadget thing Jim and Robin are dead. Batman doesn't want to risk that because it's stated throughout the goddamn game that he fears losing his allies, so when they have a gun pointed at them, it's probably realistic that Batman doesn't want to attempt a ninja break in in the chance in they die.
"Batman had to let Scarecrow strap him to a gurney"
Batman doesn't know if by attacking Scarecrow, that maybe he would alert guards to kill Robin and Jim. And besides, would Batman really want to risk getting both shot and induced with fear gas that would probably him into the Joker? Scarecrow has shown multiple times that he's capable of sticking his needles into Batman or showering him with fear toxin, ALONG with the gun as well. Batman. Doesn't. Want. To. Risk. IT.
Scarecrow at this point has broken Batman. He put Robin and Jim into a Jason Todd situation and Batman is faced with his worst fear; losing his allies. Scarecrow has systematically heightened and resurfaced this fear constantly throughout the game. Just like an hour beforehand, Batman sees the fruit of his failures; Jason, he lost him and he thought Jason was truly gone forever. He couldn't handle losing another ally. Batman at this point surrenders completely to Scarecrow out of fear. That is the point. Batman is not himself here. That's what makes the finale so satisfying. Batman finally overcoming scarecrow completely by saying "I'm not afraid of you, Crane." It'd be more out of character for Batman if anything if he decided to go in guns blazing considering the effort he takes to protect his allies.
Misunderstanding of the story and the build up to it.
"Why couldn't Nightwing and Catwoman save him?"
Ummm, first of all, they don't really have any form of transportation and Arkham Asylum is really far away. Secondly, like I've said, they don't want to risk killing batman or the others.
"He just told Jason he was sorry, was that enough to pull a complete 180?"
Yes. Jason at this point has been responsible for everything bad that happened to Batman that night. He still thinks at this point is Barbara is still dead, and it was Jason's fault for that as he captured her. He was responsible for what happened to Gotham, he helped Scarecrow throughout all of this, he's tried to kill Bruce but yet... Bruce tells him he's sorry and offers Jason a chance to fix everything that happened, as a team. Jason has thought up to all of this that Batman didn't care if he died, he thought he left him for dead and those months of torture with Joker just scarred him. Batman showing regret, forgiveness and a chance to help him helped Jason realise that Batman still cared for him. A simple "sorry" can change your entire perception about a person.
That's it. Bye.
submitted by an_lpenetration to BatmanArkham [link] [comments]

[OC] The 150 Greatest Characters of the Marvel Cinematic Universe FINALE: #10-1

We are here! A lot of people have been saying how much they can't wait to read the top ten, and at last, that day has come. Sorry for the delay since #20-11, I've had a few other things on my plate. But today, on the twelve year anniversary of Iron Man's release, we're finally here! But first, a look back on the top 150 to date:
150.Yon-Rogg
149.Betty Ross
148.Vanessa Marianna-Fisk
147.Trevor Slattery
146.Proxima Midnight
145.Hogun
144.Aldrich Killian (The Mandarin)
143.Jiaying
142.Harold Meachum
141.Jeffrey Mace
140.The Collector
139.Bakuto
138.Willis Stryker (Diamondback)
137.Harley Keener
136.Ivan Vanko (Whiplash)
135.Brock Rumlow (Crossbones)
134.Davos
133.Jane Foster
132.Joy Meachum
131.Christine Palmer
130.Dormammu
129.Lady Sif
128.Thaddeus Ross
127.Alexandra Reid
126.Sharon Carter
125.Erik Selvig
124.Nobu Yoshioka
123.Nakia
122.Sonny Burch
121.Malcolm Ducasse
120.Elena Rodriguez (Yo-Yo)
119.Happy Hogan
118.Stick
117.Amy Bendix
116.Ray Nadeem
115.The Grandmaster
114.Ward Meachum
113.Darcy Lewis
112.Lincoln Campbell
111.Hela
110.Arnim Zola
109.Alexander Pierce
108.Claire Temple
107.Frigga
106.Ulysses Klaue
105.Obadiah Stane (Iron Monger)
104.Wong
103.Jeri Hogarth
102.Yinsen
101.Pepper Potts
100.M’Baku
99.Ego
98.Karl Mordo
97.Ned Leeds
96.Korg
95.Mantis
94.William Rawlins (Agent Orange)
93.May Parker
92.Raina
91.Lewis Wilson
90.Janet Van Dyne
89.Justin Hammer
88.Johann Schmidt (Red Skull)
87.Maria Hill
86.Ebony Maw
85.Lash
84.Trish Walker
83.Curtis Hoyle
82.Ben Urich
81.Pietro Maximoff (Quicksilver)
80.Madame Gao
79.Danny Rand (Iron Fist)
78.James Wesley
77.David Lieberman (Micro)
76.Howard Stark
75.Michelle Jones
74.Misty Knight
73.Calvin Zabo
72.Foggy Nelson
71.John McIver (Bushmaster)
70.Ava Starr (Ghost)
69.Elektra
68.Hive
67.Heimdall
66.Colleen Wing
65.Talos
64.John Pilgrim
63.Bobbi Morse (Mockingbird)
62.Karen Page
61.Luis
60.Cornell Stokes (Cottonmouth)
59.Helmut Zemo
58.Dinah Madani
57.Yondu
56.Adrian Toomes (Vulture)
55.James Rhodes (War Machine)
54.Billy Russo
53.Alphonso “Mack” Mackenzie
52.Carol Danvers (Captain Marvel)
51.Jessica Jones
50.Okoye
49.Quentin Beck (Mysterio)
48.Aida
47.Odin
46.Hank Pym
45.Jemma Simmons
44.Ancient One
43.Luke Cage
42.Robbie Reyes (Ghost Rider)
41.Ultron
40.Melinda May
39.Vision
38.Groot
37.Nick Fury
36.Clint Barton (Hawkeye)
35.Sam Wilson (Falcon)
34.Hernan Alvarez (Shades)
33.Lance Hunter
32.Valkyrie
31.Hope Van Dyne (Wasp)
30.Gamora
29.Benjamin Poindexter (Bullseye)
28.T’Challa (Black Panther)
27.Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch)
26.Phil Coulson
25.Leo Fitz
24.Natasha Romanoff (Black Widow)
23.Drax the Destroyer
22.Peggy Carter
21.Mariah Dillard
20.Grant Ward
19.Kilgrave
18.Daisy Johnson (Quake)
17.Scott Lang (Ant-Man)
16.Bucky Barnes (The Winter Soldier)
15.Bruce Banner (Hulk)
14.Wilson Fisk (Kingpin)
13.Erik Killmonger
12.Frank Castle (The Punisher)
11.Nebula
#10. Stephen Strange (Doctor Strange)
Sometimes, the fans just get it right. Legions of MCU fans were clamoring Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios to cast Benedict Cumberbatch in the role as the Sorcerer Supreme, and when Feige and co relented, the result was golden. Doctor Strange is one of the most powerful heroes in the MCU, going from a crippled shell of himself at the beginning of his first film to a supremely powerful Master of the Mystic Arts by the end. It's usually said that Doctor Strange doesn't have any actual "superpowers" so to speak, but I tend to disagree: I believe Stephen Strange's super power is his iron will, absolutely unbreakable by anyone in the universe. He let himself be killed, over and over again, for what probably amounted to centuries or millennia, if not for millions of years. And he never tapped out, he never relented. Doctor Strange is unmatched not just in his mystical power, but in his pure resolve to protect the physical world from all harm and destruction.
#9. Rocket Raccoon
Rocket Raccoon has been another member of the 'pleasant surprise' category in the MCU. He was always great, starting as the funniest Guardian and vehicle for a legendary performance by Bradley Cooper. But over the course of Rocket's four film appearances, we've learned about a complex character who's been hurt by everyone he's ever been close to and is grappling with the fact that he was made into something he never asked to be. At the same time though, for all the powerful emotional stuff going on with the character of Rocket, he is still just hilarious. A sarcastic quote for each and every occasion, the insistence that he's the captain of the Guardians' ship, and of course the scene where Bucky picks him up and spins him around killing outriders in Wakanda, which is the greatest scene in the MCU bar none.
#8. Thor
Thor, Son of Odin, King of Asgard, Guardian of the Nine Realms. The original Thor was the third MCU movie I saw in theaters, and I wasn't expecting much out of it. But like Iron Man before it, Thor was a massive surprise. Thor as a character has had one of the longest, most tumultuous journeys of any character in the franchise, and considering he's lived over 1,500 years old, those thirteen years he's been here have changed everything in the blink of an eye. Thor has one by one lost everyone from his old life on Asgard, leaving him alone in his life, the oldest man on earth by a few centuries and with hardly anyone he can truly relate to. Still, Thor suits up and goes to battle for a planet he's only recently known over and over again, putting his life on the line for people he will outlive by a few centuries more. Thor isn't just the ultimate warrior, he's also a great man and a good friend.
#7. Matt Murdock (Daredevil)
The first MCU superhero to be adapted to the small screen, the portrayal of Matt Murdock was knocked clear out of the park. Charlie Cox was one of the MCU's greatest castings, and the writing behind the character does true justice to one of the great comic heroes of all time. Matt Murdock is a man defined by his struggle to adhere to his vigorous moral code when the criminals he's fighting are bound by no such restriction. Still, even though every thug he beats up lives to tell the tale, it only serves to spread word about the Devil of Hell's Kitchen, and make the worst of society think twice about what they do in the shadows. Though it's now up in limbo whether we'll ever see Matt don his famous red suit again, should he not return there's still solace in a perfect final scene, where the Daredevil beats Wilson Fisk to a bloody husk and announces, with great authority and possibly even relief, that the Kingpin had been beaten.
#6. Peter Quill (Star-Lord)
With Peter Quill, Marvel had the unique challenge of having to build a famous movie hero out of an unknown comic character. Only Marvel's diehards had any idea about any of the Guardians of the Galaxy, Quill included, and so when the 2014 team movie became a smash hit, it was a surprise to many. It didn't hurt to have Chris Pratt in the role, bringing a goofy charisma that only a few actors can pull off. But what makes Quill so great is that beyond the wisecracking man-child is a layered character with a lot of internal tumult, mostly suppressed but often appearing when Quill loses control of his emotions. Peter lost his mother at a young age, something he was never taught to deal with, and every time since that he found himself a new family, it wasn't long before death took them too. It was obviously a strategic disaster for Peter to lose his cool on Titan, but doesn't he deserve it at this point? Everyone he's ever loved promptly died, and he finally found the person responsible for one of them. You can't expect him not to beat the crap out of Thanos there.
#5. Peter Parker (Spider-Man)
Powers can fall upon the strangest people sometimes, and unlike the genius billionaires, norse gods and born war heroes of the Marvel world, Peter Parker was just a kid, one who was really unprepared to be a superhero in any way. Sure he's quite intelligent for his young age, but suddenly becoming the strongest human alive and having abilities on par with the superheroes he admired was a pretty stark change for Peter. Ever since his first appearance in Captain America: Civil War, we've gotten to watch Peter learn just what his role is in this greater universe of superheroes, where someone like him is in position to truly enact positive change. It's of course also worth noting that Tom Holland has been fantastic in the role, especially up against Hulk-sized expectations from people who may have been rooting for Dylan O'Brien or Logan Lerman. One of the MCU's most iconic moments came in that first Civil War trailer when Spidey snatched away Captain America's shield landed in frame for his first appearance alongside the Avengers, right back where he belongs. Spider-Man is home, and this whole big journey wouldn't be as special without him.
#4. Thanos
Marvel's Darth Vader, teased from the shadows for years and then finally unveiled in grand fashion. Thanos flipped over everything we thought we knew about superhero movie villains when he not only did not die in Avengers: Infinity War, but he actually won. Not in the Helmut Zemo "lost but still won" way, but Thanos won outright. He went to each infinity stone and fought and killed whoever he had to fight and kill in order to take them, and then he did. There's no other MCU villain with that kind of performance. Tony Stark feared Thanos before he even met him, and he was clearly right to do so. Thanos took advantage of a divided Avengers team and walked right past them to achieve his goal and decimate half the universe. While he didn't have the absolute most fleshed-out backstory or the very most sympathetic motivation, Thanos was the perfect blend of being a legitimate threat and layered character. The role of being the villain in the final, ultimate climax of the Marvel Cinematic Universe was a task the size of the universe itself, and Thanos rose to the challenge.
#3. Loki
The first enemy to assemble the Avengers stands behind only Ledger's Joker in the hierarchy of comic movie villains, but as a character he's so much more than just that. Loki's arc from his first appearance nine years ago has been long and winding, and always captivating and heartbreaking. The adopted son of Odin, Prince of Asgard, felt a burden to rule that only he could fulfill, but his (perhaps justified) self-aspiration was met with a blatant preference toward his older brother, and immediately thereafter the revelation he had not been born to royalty at all. After being set adrift in the cosmos, Loki found himself a mind slave to the mad titan Thanos, landing him eventually into an Asgardian prison cell. From there he was shunned by most of his family, with his most cherished relative, his mother, being killed unceremoniously shortly thereafter. When Loki finally achieved redemption, found peace and restored his relationship with his brother, it was not long before the life was squeezed out of his frail windpipe by the galactic terrorist whose clutches he thought he'd escaped. Not only was Loki's character journey well-written and well-executed, you can't talk about Loki without mentioning the masterful performance of Tom Hiddleston. Hiddleston brought just the amount of charm that the god of mischief deserves, making it not at all hard to believe that Loki could take over the kingdom of Asgard by merit of his deceptive charisma alone.
#2. Steve Rogers (Captain America)
The leader of the Avengers, the man with the iron heart, the humanity that tied gods and monsters back down to Earth. Steve Rogers is, in his own words, "just a kid from Brooklyn", but what's inside of him made him so much more. Captain America wasn't just a name to reflect the spangly suit that Steve Rogers wore to battle, it was a symbol of the qualities we as Americans like to strive to reflect: perseverance, fortitude, and the unwavering commitment to do what's right regardless of how hard it is. There's a lot of moments you can point to as the definitive moment of Steve's character, but I can't think of a better choice than when Steve, with a broken body, broken shield, and broken home stood alone against the entire legions of Thanos's army. It didn't matter what the odds were. It didn't matter that he could stand down and bargain for his survival. All that mattered was the mission, and there was nothing in the universe that could stop Steve from fighting for what was right. And when the portals opened behind his backs, ushering in the armies of the world to stand against Thanos's tyranny, a powerful statement was made that those who are willing to lay it all down on the line usually don't do so alone.
"The price of freedom is high; it always has been. But it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not."
#1. Tony Stark (Iron Man)
It all began with one man, one man who wasn't born great, and didn't have it thrust upon him; rather he achieved it, he built it from scratch when all hope was lost. Because Tony wasn't strong enough to punch his way out of that cave, nor could he shoot lasers from his fists, shrink to microscopic size, or run past the speed of light. He used the one thing the terrorists couldn't take away from his: his mind. He didn't have the means to escape readily available to him, so he built them. Tony Stark's superpower is his brain, and his ironclad will. Everything in the MCU, from the very most grounded to the most bizarre and cosmic, all stemmed from Tony Stark's story, the journey he began twelve years ago. Iron Man ushered in a new era of not just cinema, but global culture. Tony Stark has been at the center of this great big saga since day one; he is the most compelling and most complex character with the most impactful presence in the 23 films of the MCU so far. The greatest accomplishment of this great big universe, is the man behind the ARC reactor. And when it all came to a head, the culmination of a decade plus of excitement and joy and tears and laughter, the climax it had all been building up to...the journey of one man, the one that eleven years prior saw him clinging to life in that cave, finally saw its conclusion. The MCU is Tony Stark. He is its heart, its soul, and of course, its greatest character.
Thank you all for coming along on this journey with me, I hope you've enjoyed reading these as much as I've enjoyed making them!
#150-141
#140-131
#130-121
#120-111
#110-101
#100-91
#90-81
#80-71
#70-61
#60-51
#50-41
#40-31
#30-21
#20-11
submitted by gamedemon24 to marvelstudios [link] [comments]

Goro Majima: Character discussion and the significance of his tattoo

Get ready for a massive fucking wall of text built with my feels. I just finished Yakuza 0--so far, the only Yakuza game I've played--and promptly spoiled myself on the rest of Goro Majima's anti-hero arc throughout the series due to a combination of a quarantine situation and my unhealthy obsession with his lore, which I'm purging by writing this. While somewhat inconsistently written over the years, his transformation between Y0 and Y1/Kiwami 1 and ensuing characterization carries undiscussed literary depth within the context of details like his tattoo. It goes without saying that spoilers follow in the discussion, though I've blacked out some character reveals or deaths in the main post.
Biography/Character Development As series fans are aware, at some point between the end of Yakuza 0 (1988) and the start of the first Yakuza game/Yakuza Kiwami (1995/2005), our favorite one-eyed boi's personality does a 180 from a calm, collected gentleman to the Joker counterpart to Kiryu's Batman--at least, from the point of view of someone who started with Yakuza 0. Hell, Mark Hamill even voiced him in the English dub.
Fan discussion varies on whether Majima's crazy side (shown in most of the series and around the other yakuza post-Y0, and particularly in Kiwami 1) is an exaggerated defense mechanism for him to operate efficiently in the yakuza underworld, if his sane side (shown around civilians and occasionally Kiryu/Saejima, particularly in Y0 when he's imprisoned in his 'gilded cage' in Sotenbori) is a repressed/depressed act, or if both represent him accurately (à la Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde) and he's not acting. The only consistencies in his character seem to be his loyalty and his respect for people who display courage, honor, and independence. Out-of-universe, he debuted as an insane character who was later given backstory and depth; in-universe/in-game, chronologically, his seemingly gentle nature gives way to a maniac with touches of sanity. It is worth noting that the lead English translator for the game, Scott Strichart, has said that Majima "makes a conscious choice to... let loose," though this is never alluded to in-game.
To recount the rest of Majima's history: 1985 - We are unaware of how he acted pre-Yakuza 0, but know that he endured a year of isolated torture for insubordination to his superiors out of concern for his oath brother. 1988 - Yakuza 0 takes place. Even in Y0, Majima acts a little crazy at times in karaoke and in his Breaker Style, more so than Kiryu would. Additionally, during Y0, we see the loss of people he admires or who died to defend him, including Lee, Awano, Sagawa, and especially Nishitani--all of who contribute to his later personality. His wild persona is partially inspired by how he's treated while he's acting like a gentleman, including him being used by Sagawa and Shimano throughout the game--hence the 'dog' part of his 'mad dog' title--and giving up Makoto so she can have a happy life, both of which could have their own textposts. 1992 - As revealed in Yakuza 5 in 2012 anecdotally by his pop idol/superstar ex-wife Mirei Park: sometime between Y0 and Y1/Kiwami 1, he goes through an ill-fated marriage at 28 with a then-18-year-old, hits her after finding out she aborted their child without telling him, and divorces her in part to save her career. 2005 - The original Yakuza game/Kiwami 1 takes place. Majima stalks Kiryu every chance he gets. 2006 - After the events of Kiwami 2, Majima also temporarily leaves the yakuza to begin a construction company--a venture that recalls his business acumen and many dualities (civilian/criminal, destruction/construction, and the ultimate duality of the Yakuza series itself: strategic management minigame set against a lighthearted story/cartoonishly violent beat-em-up set against a serious story). (Majima continues to show up in future Yakuza games, but I haven't seen any character development easter eggs in his reactions to major game events like his oath brother Saejima being released from prison. Every biographer is biased, though--I believe I've underplayed Saejima's role in Majima's motivations simply because I've only played Y0, a game in which Saejima was barely mentioned. See character analysis by Scott Strichart in an AMA here) (contains major Y5 spoilers).
I argue that Majima's tattoo, which existed pre-1985, foretells his arc and represents the conscious dualities of his nature.
The Tattoo Concept art of Majima's tattoo Y0 Majima wearing the tattoo on his front Y0 Majima wearing the tattoo on his back
Every Yakuza (game) character's tattoo has an animal or figure that symbolizes them to some extent, but I believe Majima's has a deeper connection to his story arc as opposed to just his personality. (The same could be argued for Nishikiyama's koi in relation to Kiryu's dragon and Japanese folklore, or how four of the protagonists' tattoos from later games represent the four Eastern Guardians, but those are their own walls of text.)
According to the Yakuza fandom wiki (emphasis mine):
[Majima's tattoo] covers his biceps, upper chest, and stretches from his neck to the back of his thighs. It consists of a floral motif (similar to Shimano's), with a Hannya on his back, and twin snakes wrapped around his arms and chest.
I'm going to analyze Majima's tattoo in two parts: the symbology of the twin snakes in relation to his arc and the symbology of the Hannya.
Snakes - Analysis Why the snake, of all animals, to represent Majima? Why not the dog, given that his nickname is 'The Mad Dog of Shimano'? While Majima matches the energy and loyalty of a dog, a dog would represent only the acted, artificial facets of his personality: him being 'leashed' in Sotenbori or 'barking' at thugs. Even this nickname is a red herring; if he were called 'The Serpent of Shimano,' that'd ruin the point of his entire façade(s). The serpent, in addition to a plethora of more specific cultural and historical symbologies associated with it, is hidden, agile, flexible, cunning, and deadly. This suits both of Majima's personalities more completely--even as his 'Lord of the Night' persona, in his Y0 introduction, he uses calculated, indirect methods to deal with a disruptive customer as the manager of The Grand. (In my opinion, all of the Youtube video clips of this introduction leave out the best part: the end of the night, when the player controlling him returns to a tiny, bare apartment on the trashy side of town after having just made 100 million yen managing his lavish cabaret, and collapses sleeplessly on a bare mat on the floor for another night of PTSD flashbacks.) In battle, especially in Y1/Kiwami onwards, Majima's style is quick and knife-like, relying on his speed and agility rather than brute physical force. We also see in multiple cutscenes, especially in Y0 (if you don't already believe he's acting most of the time either way), that he's capable of deception and guarding secrets when needed.
This begs the second question--why twin snakes? As you can see in the concept art linked above, one of the snakes--the one prominently displayed on his chest--has its mouth open as if to strike, whereas the other--less visible and hanging off his shoulder--does not. They may represent the series' recurring theme of the Yakuza way of life being a dichotomy between criminality and civility. The snake alone represents the infinite cycle of death and rebirth in the classic symbol of the ouroboros, where it eats its own tail, and also has been portrayed for the dual contrasts of medicine/poison and good/evil. Whenever Majima embodies one of his personas, he 'sheds' the skin of the other, because much like pedestrian life (blood/married family, legitimate business, honesty, civility, tuxedo used for work, and long hair tied back) and Yakuza life (crime/sworn family, illicit business, manipulation, violence, snakeskin jacket that he chose, and loose short hair), the two are incompatible. His eyes are also symbolic in this way: one eye sees normally, while the other is mutilated and covered with a black eyepatch. This duality is displayed in Majima's many "snake skins," for (minor Kiwami 1 spoilers ahead) Majima is neither female (Goromi), lawful (Officer Majima), dead (Zombie Majima), a beloved celebrity (in-universe, anyway--Everyone's Idol Goro), nor a domestic service worker (at least in Kiwami 1--Taxi Driver Majima). We'll cover his last persona, Hannya-man, in the next section. The reason for Majima's duality existing is that psychologically, Majima needs both in order to be healthy and true to what he is: he needs to ground himself on occasion so he doesn't totally fly off the handle, and inversely, he needs to let his 'crazy' out in order to stay sane.
Hannya - Analysis According to the Wikipedia article for Hannya:
The Hannya mask is said to be demonic and dangerous but also sorrowful and tormented, displaying the complexity of human emotions. When the actor looks straight ahead, the mask appears frightening and angry; when tilted slightly down, the face of the demon appears to be sorrowful, as though crying.
The original Japanese legend of the Hannya tells the story of a jealous, hideous she-demon-slash-beautiful woman twisted by betrayal. The 'frightening' side of the Hannya is Majima's crazy side that he shows in battle and when dealing with other yakuza, whereas the 'sorrowful' side is Majima's life outside of the yakuza. In real-world Japanese culture, the face of the Hannya is a mask used in kabuki theatre; Majima is wearing a mask at all times (both figuratively, and also on the tattoo on his back). There is no one in the world whom Majima can show both his sensitive/caring side without being hurt or manipulated, and his bloodthirsty/criminal side (he joined the yakuza of his own free will multiple times and seems to enjoy the thrill of a fight) without being feared or putting others in danger, to except for possibly the powerful but righteous and emotionally-balanced Kiryu, which helps explain why Majima's so drawn to him.
We now focus our attention on Hannya-man, one of Majima's masks that he literally wears in a battle against Kiryu. In Kiwami 1, the main reason he fights Kiryu, despite threatening to kill him, is conversely to make Kiryu stronger after Kiryu gets out of ten years of prison. At the end of Yakuza 0 and Kiwami 2 (this entire section is gonna be one big spoiler about Majima's personal life through Yakuza Kiwami 2 and Yakuza 5 - I wouldn't click past the next spoiler if you haven't played Kiwami 2), Majima goes out of his way to avoid revealing who he is to Makoto in-person, even though he loves her; his ignorance of her in order to shield her from the yakuza life is his greatest act of love. It's interesting how much Makoto and Mirei compare and contrast in their personalities and relationship with Majima. This addresses the question of why the Hannya mask appears "sorrowful, as though crying" from a different angle. Majima never fully got over Makoto, the only character who understood what his year of torture and losing an eye was like; when Makoto gives him a massage and some closure by chance at the end of Kiwami 2 after she reveals that she ended up having a son with the doctor who saved her, Majima mutters to himself that by thanking him and telling him that she's been happy, she's untied some loose knots he's had "for 18 years." He's kept count of this in his head. The game executes the 'show-not-tell' rule of storytelling masterfully here--Majima never directly shows her nor tells anyone that he's in love with her. We only get this impression by his body language, actions, and dialogue from other characters like Shimano. Majima doesn't discuss his civilian life, at least in-game. We wouldn't even know about (major Y5 spoiler) his failed marriage and dead baby from 1992 if it weren't for another character's dialogue in Yakuza 5. For all we know, Majima could really want to become a father, but can't--in addition to his actions (again, Y5) towards Mirei upon finding out what she did, he displays fatherly instincts multiple times during Y0's civilian substories/hostess training, especially towards Yuki, and throwaway lines of dialogue during those trainings indicate he's not completely averse to having a kid. Unlike the Hannya in her jealous fury, Majima accepts that he would never receive a 'happy ending' from his relationship with Makoto, only a bittersweet one. Yes, that was a symbolic massage pun. His civilian life is, in some ways, ironically more tragic than his yakuza one.
To conclude, Majima's tattoos tell their own lore--that of the multiple dualities of his story and character arc.
I'll wrap up with a quote from Kurt Vonnegut, a 20th century writer who turned to the absurd to sculpt the effects of PTSD:
We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.
Additional miscellaneous credit for this writeup goes to commenters on Youtube, Tumblr, Reddit, and various gaming forums.
submitted by greyest to yakuzagames [link] [comments]

Best Batman TAS Episode Endings

What are the best endings in Batman: TAS in your opinion?
I like the dramatic and dark side of the show, especially Shirley Walker’s music at certain endings, my best endings are (not ordered):
- Vendetta: Despite being a piece of crap, it’s always good to be reminded that Bullock is a damn good cop!
- Appointment in Crime Alley: This show wasn’t just about fighting blue collar criminals, disfigured psychopaths, and obsessive thugs. And it’s good to know that Batman knows that and stands up against the hidden white collar criminals. No one expects an episode on a touchy topic like gentrification to be so damn good.“Good people still live in Crime Alley.”
- Birds of a Feather: One common recurring theme of Oswald Cobblepot is his love of theatrics, “high class”, and attempts at legitimacy. The ending of this episode taking place in a theater with the Penguin being taken away by the police, and him taking one parting shot at the likes of Veronica Vreeland and Bruce who never accepted him, was just too damn good. With Batman watching him from the box.
- The Cat and The Claw, Part II: Batman is merely a human. He can be manipulated, too. And the ending here was so heartbreaking for people like me who believe in improbable love. Catwoman saying “So, you do care?” and approaching to kiss him. “More than you’ll ever know!” the Bat responds while slapping the cuffs on her.
- Feat of Clay, Part II: Batman desperately trying to fix Matt Hagan, who clearly does not want to be fixed.
- Perchance to Dream: This episodes’s ending is so good. After Batman escapes the Mad Hatter’s dream machine, he is enraged by the emotional manipulation he just went through. It’s also a reminder that Bruce Wayne does not love this life, and would much rather not be Batman; evidenced by his quote at the end “The stuff dreams made out of.” Just heartbreaking!
- Robin’s Reckoning, Part II: The relationship between Bruce and Dick is far more important to Batman than he lets out. Dick Grayson, the ultimate good guy, is joyed to know he is really loved by his brooding tough mentor. Makes me cry every time. Because Dick Grayson was more than just a crime fighting partner to Bruce; he was also a son!
- Heart of Ice: Glad that this show has had a positive effect on the entire franchise by re-imagining Mister Freeze as a sympathetic supervillain. Seeing him crying alone in his cold cell, with Batman watching over him, was something magical. Shirley Walker's music was the icing on the cake. Truly remarkable ending of a critically acclaimed episode.
- Beware the Gray Ghost: Very emotional ending for Bruce Wayne and a great tribute to Adam West. And Bruce telling the Gray Ghost/Adam West subtly that he inspired him to become Batman. “I used to watch you with my father... the Gray Ghost was my hero” “Oh really?” “And he still is.”
- I am the Night: After Gordon was shot and almost killed, Batman questions what he has become: a no good merchandise! The ending with Batman seeing his good deeds actually helping people like that young hustler, was too good for an animated show.
- House & Garden: There is probably no member of Batman’s infamous rogues gallery who hates humanity more than Poison Ivy. Yet even the ecoterroristic red temptress still has normal human hopes and dreams of a family. A very perverse version of a "family"; but still a family, no less. A very emotional and unexpected ending for a supervillain who always claims to be misunderstood.
- Two-Face, Part II: This is a very emotional ending for Batman seeing his friend go to the other side. Batman tossing Two-Face’s coin in the wishing fountain, keeping his own futile hopes alive, and showing us Batman’s good side.
- Joker’s Favor: Poor everyman “miserable nobody”, Charlie Collins, gets entangled with the Clown Prince of Crime himself. Pretty inspirational to see the good guy gets the last laugh with Batman. While the Joker being too sane for Collins’s rage. The good guy has defeated Gotham's most psychotic supervillain.
- Nothing to Fear: Batman’s essence is challenged by Dr. Crane's fear toxin. Batman prevails and gives the Scarecrow a taste of his own poison. Although triumphant, we still see that the Dark Knight has not gotten over his emotional scars.
- Riddler’s Reform: This ending is very defining when it comes to Batman’s most obsessive compulsive supervillain. The Riddler did not care that Batman escaped as much as he did about HOW he escaped. As Batman said in the episode, he just can’t help it! In this ending, we see exactly what Batman means with the mighty Edward Nygma not being able to calm down and shouting at the walls in Arkham, “I HAVE TO KNOW! I HAVE TO KNOW!”.
- Off Balance: Ra’s al Ghul and his daughter Talia, thinking they have gotten the best of Batman, only to realize that “even in defeat, the ‘Detective’ manages even a small measure of victory. As you’ve said, Detective, this is NOT over”

These were my favorite episode endings. What are yours?
submitted by Balvin_Janders to BatmanTAS [link] [comments]

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